Author Topic: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY) (Read 21879 times)

Alex_Olijar · « **on:** June 09, 2013, 10:48:38 AM »

Roy asked me to post the top cut rules that he, after consideration of the various options and consultation with Rob, felt were the best given the goals of the top cut and the time constraints of the National Tournament.

Procedure:

After 7 swiss rounds, the top 8 players are seeded. If a tie for either seeding (i.e 4 or 5) or to get into the cut (i.e. 8 and 9) occurs, the following tiebreakers are used:

1. Head to Head
2. Differential
3. Summing the total Swiss points of opponents (highest total wins)
4. Person who beat the highest ranked opponent

We then proceed in a bracket style tournament.

1v8
2v7
3v6
4v5

Top 4 would place the winner of 1v8 vs the winner of 4v5 and winner of 2v7 vs winner of 3v6.

Final Placing order would be determined as such:

Winner of the Top 2 round is First place
Loser of the Top 2 Round is Second place
Loser of Top 4 round with highest swiss point total through the original 7 rounds [aka highest original seed] is Third place

In case of a tie between the two losers of the top 4 round, the same tiebreaking procedure will be used as is used to determine tie within the top cut or to get into the top cut.

Special Top Cut rule: Immediately after the players who made Top Cut are announced, each player in the Top Cut must select one deck (if multiple decks have been checked) to use for the duration of the top cut. That deck must have been used at least twice during the Swiss Portion of the tournament (decks not used during swiss are not eligible to be played in the top cut). You may not change decks during the top cut for any reason. If your deck would be illegal due to ripping a Haman's Plot and you still have a round to play, you forfeit the round in question.

If there is a tie at time in the Top Cut, players play sequential rounds (each player taking a turn) until one player has taken a lead.

If you have any questions about the procedure of the top cut, please post here. I should be able to answer it. If clarification is necessary, I will make sure to alert Roy if a decision needs to be made.

Chris · « **Reply #1 on:** June 09, 2013, 12:52:09 PM »

I'm not crazy about two of the things here. First, I don't like that differential is taking precedence over strength of schedule. I also don't like that there isn't a game going on with the finals to decide third place. Minor irritations, and I'm glad that we're giving this a try this year. Special thanks to Roy and Rob for taking the leap.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #2 on:** June 09, 2013, 12:56:52 PM »

Quote from: Chris on June 09, 2013, 12:52:09 PM

I'm not crazy about two of the things here. First, I don't like that differential is taking precedence over strength of schedule. I also don't like that there isn't a game going on with the finals to decide third place. Minor irritations, and I'm glad that we're giving this a try this year. Special thanks to Roy and Rob for taking the leap.

I am not personally opposed to the game for third place, but I do think it'd be better to allow everyone to get to see the Championship game and not be playing a third place game at the same time.

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 09, 2013, 01:06:20 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 09, 2013, 12:56:52 PM

Quote from: Chris on June 09, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
I'm not crazy about two of the things here. First, I don't like that differential is taking precedence over strength of schedule. I also don't like that there isn't a game going on with the finals to decide third place. Minor irritations, and I'm glad that we're giving this a try this year. Special thanks to Roy and Rob for taking the leap.

I am not personally opposed to the game for third place, but I do think it'd be better to allow everyone to get to see the Championship game and not be playing a third place game at the same time.

I understand that point, but having just one other game on at that (or another time) shouldn't make too much of a difference. Further, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of deciding Third place as the person with the original highest rank (which can be a bit subjective with no real difference between the top 8 seeds from the morning rounds) who won one game. Both people who lose in the second round should be given the opportunity to place.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #4 on:** June 09, 2013, 01:09:20 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 09, 2013, 01:06:20 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 09, 2013, 12:56:52 PM
Quote from: Chris on June 09, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
I'm not crazy about two of the things here. First, I don't like that differential is taking precedence over strength of schedule. I also don't like that there isn't a game going on with the finals to decide third place. Minor irritations, and I'm glad that we're giving this a try this year. Special thanks to Roy and Rob for taking the leap.

I am not personally opposed to the game for third place, but I do think it'd be better to allow everyone to get to see the Championship game and not be playing a third place game at the same time.

I understand that point, but having just one other game on at that (or another time) shouldn't make too much of a difference. Further, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of deciding Third place as the person with the original highest rank (which can be a bit subjective with no real difference between the top 8 seeds from the morning rounds) who won one game. Both people who lose in the second round should be given the opportunity to place.

From my understanding logistically, there isn't another time, so it would have to occur at the same time. Considering how many complaints there have been about Top Cut devaluing swiss rounds, I didn't really think that sort of decision on third place would matter too much.

Also, do other games even do third place matches?

lp670sv · « **Reply #5 on:** June 09, 2013, 02:21:37 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 09, 2013, 01:09:20 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on June 09, 2013, 01:06:20 PM
Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 09, 2013, 12:56:52 PM
Quote from: Chris on June 09, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
I'm not crazy about two of the things here. First, I don't like that differential is taking precedence over strength of schedule. I also don't like that there isn't a game going on with the finals to decide third place. Minor irritations, and I'm glad that we're giving this a try this year. Special thanks to Roy and Rob for taking the leap.

I am not personally opposed to the game for third place, but I do think it'd be better to allow everyone to get to see the Championship game and not be playing a third place game at the same time.
I understand that point, but having just one other game on at that (or another time) shouldn't make too much of a difference. Further, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of deciding Third place as the person with the original highest rank (which can be a bit subjective with no real difference between the top 8 seeds from the morning rounds) who won one game. Both people who lose in the second round should be given the opportunity to place.

From my understanding logistically, there isn't another time, so it would have to occur at the same time. Considering how many complaints there have been about Top Cut devaluing swiss rounds, I didn't really think that sort of decision on third place would matter too much.

Also, do other games even do third place matches?

Yu Gi Oh does.
Source: Bracket is near the bottom

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #6 on:** June 09, 2013, 03:09:12 PM »

Really happy this is going to be implemented. Big thumbs up, and the rules look really solid.

SirNobody · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2013, 10:24:44 AM »

Hey,

For clarification, Head to Head is the first tie breaker in cases of two way ties only correct?

I agree that is seems kinda weird to not have a third place game.
The fact that your deck only has to be used in one game durring the swiss rounds worries me a bit.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #8 on:** June 11, 2013, 05:43:16 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 11, 2013, 10:24:44 AM

The fact that your deck only has to be used in one game durring the swiss rounds worries me a bit.

Why does that worry you? Check in three identical decks. After you play a game that you don't rip a plot, set it to the side and use that for Top Cut. If you're worried your super secret deck will be found out, play it first round against somebody who won't talk.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2013, 06:18:16 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 11, 2013, 05:43:16 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on June 11, 2013, 10:24:44 AM
The fact that your deck only has to be used in one game durring the swiss rounds worries me a bit.
Why does that worry you? Check in three identical decks. After you play a game that you don't rip a plot, set it to the side and use that for Top Cut. If you're worried your super secret deck will be found out, play it first round against somebody who won't talk.

Top Cut counter decks are probably more problematic, but considering only 2 people will enter the final round knowing they made the cut and willing to play their top cut only deck, I'm not sure how real of an issue that will be.

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2013, 06:41:46 PM »

Still very much in favor of a 3rd place game, for the reasons being brought up earlier in this thread.

However, I have another question: Is there a time limit for Top Cut games? And if so, what determines the winner? Is it played just first-to-five, sudden-death OT, or more of a baseball scenario (if you go 'up' as the player who took first turn, the other player gets their turn still as well)?

SirNobody · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2013, 07:45:09 PM »

Hey,

Westy, my concern is on the other side. I'd prefer that you have to use the deck in at least two swiss rounds if not three. A player should not be able to design one deck for top cut and another for the swiss rounds, the same deck(s) should have to be viable for both.

Alex, I think it's more likely a player would play their Top Cut deck in round 1 where they most likely will be in an uneven matchup. Worst case scenario they lose have their Top Cut deck "activated" and are playing from the bottom up against easier opposition to help pad their differential for one of the higher one loss top cut seeds.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2013, 09:50:23 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 11, 2013, 07:45:09 PM

Alex, I think it's more likely a player would play their Top Cut deck in round 1 where they most likely will be in an uneven matchup. Worst case scenario they lose have their Top Cut deck "activated" and are playing from the bottom up against easier opposition to help pad their differential for one of the higher one loss top cut seeds.

That seems like a really bad strategic decision as the second loss nearly surely eliminates you unless your differential is great

SirNobody · « **Reply #13 on:** June 11, 2013, 10:21:25 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2013, 09:50:23 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on June 11, 2013, 07:45:09 PM
Alex, I think it's more likely a player would play their Top Cut deck in round 1 where they most likely will be in an uneven matchup. Worst case scenario they lose have their Top Cut deck "activated" and are playing from the bottom up against easier opposition to help pad their differential for one of the higher one loss top cut seeds.

That seems like a really bad strategic decision as the second loss nearly surely eliminates you unless your differential is great

That depends on how likely the worst case scenario is. If the changes are 90% you win your first round regardless of what deck you use...

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2013, 07:50:46 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 11, 2013, 10:21:25 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2013, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: SirNobody on June 11, 2013, 07:45:09 PM
Alex, I think it's more likely a player would play their Top Cut deck in round 1 where they most likely will be in an uneven matchup. Worst case scenario they lose have their Top Cut deck "activated" and are playing from the bottom up against easier opposition to help pad their differential for one of the higher one loss top cut seeds.

That seems like a really bad strategic decision as the second loss nearly surely eliminates you unless your differential is great

That depends on how likely the worst case scenario is. If the changes are 90% you win your first round regardless of what deck you use...

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

That's playing the odds and not true. Ask Gabe and John Earley about the first round at MN

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** June 16, 2013, 06:27:27 PM »

I just wanted to make sure that the following got clarified before the tournament, especially because a change to the time limit rules would definitely affect deck selection:

Quote from: Redoubter on June 11, 2013, 06:41:46 PM

Is there a time limit for Top Cut games? And if so, what determines the winner? Is it played just first-to-five, sudden-death OT, or more of a baseball scenario (if you go 'up' as the player who took first turn, the other player gets their turn still as well)?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #16 on:** June 22, 2013, 11:55:35 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 16, 2013, 06:27:27 PM

I just wanted to make sure that the following got clarified before the tournament, especially because a change to the time limit rules would definitely affect deck selection:

Quote from: Redoubter on June 11, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
Is there a time limit for Top Cut games? And if so, what determines the winner? Is it played just first-to-five, sudden-death OT, or more of a baseball scenario (if you go 'up' as the player who took first turn, the other player gets their turn still as well)?

I thought I responded to this, sorry. I talked to Roy and it has been decided that it would be a baseball type scenario. First person to take a lead, as long as you've taken an equal number of turns.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #17 on:** June 22, 2013, 11:57:00 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 11, 2013, 10:21:25 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2013, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: SirNobody on June 11, 2013, 07:45:09 PM
Alex, I think it's more likely a player would play their Top Cut deck in round 1 where they most likely will be in an uneven matchup. Worst case scenario they lose have their Top Cut deck "activated" and are playing from the bottom up against easier opposition to help pad their differential for one of the higher one loss top cut seeds.

That seems like a really bad strategic decision as the second loss nearly surely eliminates you unless your differential is great

That depends on how likely the worst case scenario is. If the changes are 90% you win your first round regardless of what deck you use...

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Do you think requiring it to be played for two rounds (which, if you lost twice, would virtually eliminate you from cut [or at least from having any control over your own cutting]) would be enough?

SirNobody · « **Reply #18 on:** June 23, 2013, 04:05:29 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 22, 2013, 11:57:00 AM

Do you think requiring it to be played for two rounds (which, if you lost twice, would virtually eliminate you from cut [or at least from having any control over your own cutting]) would be enough?

Yes, I think that would probably be enough.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #19 on:** June 23, 2013, 04:10:27 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 23, 2013, 04:05:29 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 22, 2013, 11:57:00 AM
Do you think requiring it to be played for two rounds (which, if you lost twice, would virtually eliminate you from cut [or at least from having any control over your own cutting]) would be enough?

Yes, I think that would probably be enough.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I'm going to update the rules to reflect that then.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #20 on:** June 23, 2013, 04:33:55 PM »

Is this going to be all event?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #21 on:** June 23, 2013, 04:34:51 PM »

Just T1 as far as I know.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #22 on:** June 23, 2013, 04:51:48 PM »

T1 2P, or all T1 events?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #23 on:** June 24, 2013, 10:35:46 AM »

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on June 23, 2013, 04:51:48 PM

T1 2P, or all T1 events?

Just T1-2P. There would be no good way (nor any good reason) to implement top cut in T1-MP.

Chris · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2013, 03:04:29 PM »

Suppose I check in two identical decks, both at 51 cards, and in the final round before top cut, I rip a Plot in one. Am I allowed to use the other identical deck with the Plot for top cut?

News:

Author Topic: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY) (Read 21879 times)

Chris

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Chris