Author Topic: Elders, some straw for our bricks? (Read 10937 times)

SEB · « **on:** April 24, 2018, 09:08:35 AM »

Forgive the hyperbole in the title

.
(Disclaimer: this post is sent with love and respect for all that you guys do for the Redemption community)

It has been awhile since I have had the pleasure of playing Redemption. I recently started getting back into the swing of things, when something made me extremely disheartened! Issuing existing art on cards with a different name.

I play many boardgames and card games, and this minor thing is proving to be a surprisingly frustrating barrier of re-entry. I can only assume that brand new players and returning players that have taken a significant break are having similar frustrations. As a player, the first thing you notice is the artwork on the card. In a sense it is the "visual social security number." Lol, I felt like some of the new cards performed identity theft.

This visual error makes it difficult to quickly sort through cards, it may add to play mistakes, and it takes up more game time to verify which card is actually being played.

I've been involved with many ministries, my initial guess is fund allocation. Do we want unique art or the cards to be printed. - I understand that you are dealing with budget constraints. I'm not asking for new artwork to be purchased, just not to use existing artwork on a card with a different name.

Thanks for the consideration and your time.

Keith
Son, exonerated from Bondage (S.E.B.)

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:16:37 AM »

Can you give some examples?

In general we rarely reuse old art on a new and different card. When we do we try to ensure that the old card that used it is one that really doesn't get used (and probably never did).

kariusvega · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:38:15 AM »

There is a ton of art being used now that wasn't used before and art that is a really cool throw back on cards that see little play.

I definitely dig the fine art being used now days that we didn't see much of before but also the very cool kid friendly comic styles. Overall I love the diversity of the artwork in the game and have almost never found the artwork to be a barrier in card recognition during play.

Hope you've seen the new set! Great artwork in it as well! :-) All of the cards are alternate border in this one and they look awesome!

Xonathan · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:46:20 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on April 24, 2018, 09:38:15 AM

There is a ton of art being used now that wasn't used before and art that is a really cool throw back on cards that see little play.

I definitely dig the fine art being used now days that we didn't see much of before but also the very cool kid friendly comic styles. Overall I love the diversity of the artwork in the game and have almost never found the artwork to be a barrier in card recognition during play.

Hope you've seen the new set! Great artwork in it as well! :-) All of the cards are alternate border in this one and they look awesome!

SEB · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2018, 10:49:00 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2018, 09:16:37 AM

Can you give some examples?

In general we rarely reuse old art on a new and different card. When we do we try to ensure that the old card that used it is one that really doesn't get used (and probably never did).

Sure:

Babylon / The Harlot > Babylon the Great
Dragon's Minion (RoJ)> Ancient Evil (Black Enhancement)
Terrifying Beast (RoA) > Wrath of Satan
Fourth Seal/Death (RoJ) > Death and Hades (War)
Blashemies (RoJ) > Beast from the Sea (Original)
The Deceiver (RoJ) > Number of the Beast (War)

There was quite a bit more, but this punctuates the O.P. point.

Keith
Son, exonerated from bondage (S.E.B.)

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM »

Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 10:49:00 AM

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2018, 09:16:37 AM
Can you give some examples?

In general we rarely reuse old art on a new and different card. When we do we try to ensure that the old card that used it is one that really doesn't get used (and probably never did).

Sure:

Babylon / The Harlot > Babylon the Great
Dragon's Minion (RoJ)> Ancient Evil (Black Enhancement)
Terrifying Beast (RoA) > Wrath of Satan
Fourth Seal/Death (RoJ) > Death and Hades (War)
Blashemies (RoJ) > Beast from the Sea (Original)
The Deceiver (RoJ) > Number of the Beast (War)

There was quite a bit more, but this punctuates the O.P. point.

Keith
Son, exonerated from bondage (S.E.B.)

So your example is showing you are upset by 2 characters being updated? Death & Babylon the Harlot are updated versions, so using the same art makes since. Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.

***Edit: Not to mention the response you got the first time still holds true. Nobody plays Babylon the Great, Ancient Evil, Beast from the Sea or Number of the Beast unless they are literally the only card they have. Also, Terrifying Beast & Death and Hades see very little play, so they almost fall into this category.***

The Guardian · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2018, 10:58:37 AM »

For pretty much all of those examples, the original cards never see play with the exception of Wrath of Satan.

The Revelation of John set was in some ways a "Warriors 2.0" set in that so many of the cards were pulled from Revelation. Using some of that great artwork from those old Warriors cards (that otherwise just sit in the bottom of the "free box") seemed like a great way to help our "budget" while using quality pieces.

Personally I love re-using great artwork on new and improved versions of cards that I will actually use for my decks. A few of my favorite examples are Abaddon the Destroyer (RoJ) and Red Dragon (RoJ).

SEB · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:04:07 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on April 24, 2018, 09:38:15 AM

There is a ton of art being used now that wasn't used before and art that is a really cool throw back on cards that see little play.

I definitely dig the fine art being used now days that we didn't see much of before but also the very cool kid friendly comic styles. Overall I love the diversity of the artwork in the game and have almost never found the artwork to be a barrier in card recognition during play.

Hope you've seen the new set! Great artwork in it as well! :-) All of the cards are alternate border in this one and they look awesome!

That is a noble idea, but extremely frustrating for those new to the game. Really, it produces unnecessary confusion. In every card game that I have played (or boardgame with cards), the name of the Card and art of the card are an unbroken link. Expected Industry Standard: artwork should only be used for a single titled card, but a titled card can have more than one artwork issued. This may not be an issue for you, but for those who are stepped in TCGs, it is.

The reason I bring this up: I like to use Redemption to reach gamers who are not in God's Kingdom. When an expected requirement of a TCG is missed, it can often turn from a door to a wall.

SEB · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:07:16 AM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM

So your example is showing you are upset by 2 characters being updated? Death & Babylon the Harlot are updated versions, so using the same art makes since. Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.

No I am not upset at all. I am pointing out that what people expect from a TCG is once artwork is tied to a titled card, it never changes. Pay homage to the old art, but dont muddy the water.

SEB · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:10:32 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on April 24, 2018, 10:58:37 AM

For pretty much all of those examples, the original cards never see play with the exception of Wrath of Satan.

The Revelation of John set was in some ways a "Warriors 2.0" set in that so many of the cards were pulled from Revelation. Using some of that great artwork from those old Warriors cards (that otherwise just sit in the bottom of the "free box") seemed like a great way to help our "budget" while using quality pieces.

Personally I love re-using great artwork on new and improved versions of cards that I will actually use for my decks. A few of my favorite examples are Abaddon the Destroyer (RoJ) and Red Dragon (RoJ).

But in your example, You named Cards that used original Artwork (Red Dragon and Abaddon). That is fine. I was happy to see that. I recognized the picture and tied it to the title of the card.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:11:34 AM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM

Nobody plays Babylon the Great, Ancient Evil, Beast from the Sea or Number of the Beast unless they are literally the only card they have.

But what about when they come out as Legacy Rares in the future Cruft of Our Fathers set?

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:12:58 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 24, 2018, 11:11:34 AM

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM
Nobody plays Babylon the Great, Ancient Evil, Beast from the Sea or Number of the Beast unless they are literally the only card they have.
But what about when they come out as Legacy Rares in the future Cruft of Our Fathers set?

They better hope that people buy cards for their looks, or complete sets, because I'm not sure I'd spend a penny on a Babylon the Great card!

SEB · « **Reply #12 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM

Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.

Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

SEB · « **Reply #13 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:22:26 AM »

Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AM

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM
Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.

Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title.

(Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)

Bobbert · « **Reply #14 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:28:28 AM »

Babylon/The Harlot IS the reprint of Babylon the Great. The game has changed a lot in the last twenty years; it's referencing the same thing, but now that character/event is printed in a way that is relevant to both the story and the game.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:30:10 AM »

Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:22:26 AM

Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AM
Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM
Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.

Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title.

(Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)

I did, and as was previously stated, Babylon / The Harlot is the updated version of Babylon the Great. The name was modified to fit the new type of card it was.

Xonathan · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:37:30 AM »

Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AM

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM
Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.

Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

People are visually driven but I wouldn’t assume that means they’ll be confused when the same art is being used.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:37:51 AM »

once we hit set rotation in a few years this will be a moot point anyway, all those old cards will be going away. I took a few years off and came back and noticed a few cards with art like this, didn't phase me

kariusvega · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:39:46 AM »

Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:22:26 AM

Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AM
Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM
Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.

Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title.

(Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)

To be real you have 7 posts and are complaining about something I haven't seen anyone complain about and giving people -1 on encouraging replies. Seems like you are compromising yourself more than what you are suggesting the reuse of good art would.

There is one cost in this life: opportunity. Play with I/j starter decks if you are trying to introduce people to the game and share the gospel with them through it.

This thread should be locked.

The Guardian · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:42:09 AM »

Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:04:07 AM

That is a noble idea, but extremely frustrating for those new to the game. Really, it produces unnecessary confusion. In every card game that I have played (or boardgame with cards), the name of the Card and art of the card are an unbroken link. Expected Industry Standard: artwork should only be used for a single titled card, but a titled card can have more than one artwork issued. This may not be an issue for you, but for those who are stepped in TCGs, it is.

The reason I bring this up: I like to use Redemption to reach gamers who are not in God's Kingdom. When an expected requirement of a TCG is missed, it can often turn from a door to a wall.

While Redemption is the only card game I've ever been involved in, I can say that I've taught numerous people how to play and there's never been an issue with re-used artwork causing confusion, (and this was done even more in the past than in recent years).

I'm not trying to dismiss your opinion by any means, but I simply don't understand where the confusion might come in. While it doesn't describe me, I know there are many others involved in Redemption who have been a part of many other card games ("stepped" as you called it), and I have never heard anyone bring this up before.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:44:06 AM »

As someone who has introduced quite a few people to Redemption over the last few years, this has never been a problem. First and foremost, because like kariusvega said, you should introduce them with the I/J decks. From there the new cards should be introduced before most of the older ones. If you do that, then this won't ever be a problem. So the question now is: "What do I do with all these old cards I have?" Well give them away to the people you are introducing to the game, and if you feel duplicate pictures will be a bigger hindrance than benefit, pick the better card of the two, and don't even use the other one.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:46:05 AM »

I know it's just my opinion, but when making new reprints of old cards, I'd often prefer updated, reworked, or new art over the old art. Along with The Guardian, I have never heard anyone bring this up before. Most people that I've talked to like new art or reusing old art on different cards.

NathanW · « **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:47:57 AM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on April 24, 2018, 11:46:05 AM

I know it's just my opinion, but when making new reprints of old cards, I'd often prefer updated, reworked, or new art over the old art. Along with The Guardian, I have never heard anyone bring this up before. Most people that I've talked to like new art or reusing old art on different cards.

Also reusing the artwork gives a chance to actually use high res versions.

SEB · « **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2018, 12:19:06 PM »

I apologize if I have made people angry - not my intention. I was pointing out an issue that other TCGs dont do. I am clearly in a minority.

SEB · « **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2018, 12:20:16 PM »

Quote from: Bobbert on April 24, 2018, 11:28:28 AM

Babylon/The Harlot IS the reprint of Babylon the Great. The game has changed a lot in the last twenty years; it's referencing the same thing, but now that character/event is printed in a way that is relevant to both the story and the game.

If it is the Reprint, why does it have a different name?

News:

Author Topic: Elders, some straw for our bricks? (Read 10937 times)

kariusvega

kariusvega