Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: SEB on June 25, 2018, 09:40:20 PM

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Honestly I probably wouldn't have much problem with people watching my games if they were quiet and weren't playing in the same category as I was. However, I do not see it as fair that someone could "scout" my deck and potentially I would not have the same opportunity (maybe I'm using a slower deck that tends to use most of the time each round or I'm playing slower opponents who take longer)

As I mentioned earlier in the example from Iowa state, if I had watched the first game (when I had the bye), I would have had an enormous advantage in knowing what the other guys were trying to pull off, and they would have had no idea what I was trying to do (especially the first guy, I suppose the second guy would have been able to observe the second match).

I dont see the major advantage. Your deck was set. You couldnt add cards to change what your deck was designed to do. You cant change the order in which your cards are drawn.

Yes your games may take a long time and you don't get to scout, but once again I argue that the advantage is marginal and the primary reason isnt for scouting but to bolster community and promote education.

Redemption is a far different game than others where knowing a decks content doesn't matter as much. If I have 4 copies of a win condition you might not be able to handle all of them even if you know it's coming. I only get 1 shot in Redemption to set an interaction, if you're able to disrupt that because you knew to save your interrupt for that point it's a significant advantage

That's not exactly a fair point. I'm guessing you are referring to MTG. If so, there are cards that allow you to name cards from opponent and banish them. That is a far significant advantage than saving one Negate for one card that may never be drawn.

I know that Redemption is a unique game. That's not my point. Im not trying to say "let's make Redemption, MTG 2.0." I'm saying a people enjoy watching their friends, and there is more positive interaction for our community than the minor inconvenience of "scouting," and that competitive games, in all genres, allow for spectators, even if the spectators are participants of the event. It is natural.

Thanks TG for the input, I also value your viewpoint as well.

To be clear, I'm not saying that there is no advantage for spectating. Im saying it is typically a minor gain for strategy and the community benefits more by having spectators. As a seasoned player, you should be able to pick up ques on opponent's deck strategies. If a player has devised a deck that is so far out of the box that you cant see their strategy coming, more than not you dont have a plan for that anyway in your deck(s).

You dont need to have experience in other CCGs to look at a spectator procedure. Can you tell me of another competitive event where they refuse to let people spectate?

Thanks TG for the input, I also value your viewpoint as well.

To be clear, I'm not saying that there is no advantage for spectating. Im saying it is typically a minor gain for strategy and the community benefits more by having spectators. As a seasoned player, you should be able to pick up ques on opponent's deck strategies. If a player has devised a deck that is so far out of the box that you cant see their strategy coming, more than not you dont have a plan for that anyway in your deck(s).

You dont need to have experience in other CCGs to look at a spectator procedure. Can you tell me of another competitive event where they refuse to let people spectate?

It's a huge advantage! It's like screen cheating when playing a video game or it would be like looking through an opponents deck right before the game starts.

If you think that seeing someones deck isn't a huge advantage I don't think you've done a lot of high level competitive play in CCGs. That single odd ball card in a deck can be the difference between taking 10th at Nationals or taking 1st.

Yes I can name a activity! Tournaments for CCG's and board games

You are looking at this as a tournament host and from that standpoint I completely agree with you. It would make for a better gaming environment. As a competitive player I have to disagree with you for all the reasons previously stated earlier by others in the thread.

Tone can be difficult to show in words: I’m not angry or upset. Just talking about a point I feel is beneficial. I hope no one feels attacked. That has not been my goal. I’m talking about this as if I were talking about the weather outside.

@Isildir
You  said Ccg tournaments and board games. Besides redemption which ones specifically?

(Because you asked about my involvement in high level Competition) I have judged and participated in professional magic events and LotR events, where thousands of dollars were on the  line. People will go and scout games as teams as a part of tournament strategy. At large events they purposely build scaffolding so more people can watch, that’s how important community is to the secular world. mtg has formally said and done things to make spectating more accessible And less of a distraction. (to be clear i brought this example up as a personal experience. MtG's spectating policy has nothing to do with my main point)

I have talked to great players who make a living bringing that “deck-tech” and playing board games. During deck creation, it is hush hush. As soon as round one hits, it’s fair game. They love the idea of people watching because it makes decks stronger and players better.

@Theguardian. In no way did you seem like a jerk. I am introducing a foreign concept into you world and you are giving me normal feedback and discussion. I have enjoyed the discussion. It is a valid concern for those who have played so long with no spectating.

I completely agree that seeing a “playbook” of a team is bad, but watching them play their strategy or their offense and figureing out  their plays is perfectly normal. Games should be public information, because as soon as one person sees it, you cannot hardly stop others from finding out.

To me after playing for thousands of dollars in that community who, most members, say “we care more about community than a large prize” it seems odd that redemption doesn’t do the same thing. This is my main point. There is no prize/tournament rank that justifies a policy to make the community aspect  of a game weaker.

Have a blessed day, all!
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Ahhh! You should have led with your experience!

Back in the day, SEB was winning Redemption Nationals while some of the players on the board were still learning to walk and talk. 

Now we just gotta get guys like Eric Largent, Josh Hey and Mike Turnidge to jump back in. (I've been working on Mike since he's a MN guy  ).

Eric Largent and pants mentioned in back to back posts? I know there’s a joke there but only old timers will get that.

Eric was the first person to help me go from a 150+ card deck to a 56 card deck and explain how horrible my other deck was and really excel at this game. I'm very glad I got to know him and thank him for those helpful moments at Creation fest when I was young.