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I think of AutO as a good support Hero on the best team in the league. If we were to use the 2011-2012 NFL season, he'd be Lawrence Tynes, a solid kicker who the Giants needed in order to be successful, but certainly wasn't a superstar all by himself.

Then there's Joseph, who is the best/second best Hero (depending on your thoughts about Jacob) on the league's second best team. Which means he'd be like Tom Brady.

AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'". So while he is over in Judges/Sam decks kicking field goals, definitely improving your chances to win, Joseph is leading his team down the field with a whole host of options at his disposal for successful touchdown drives.

Exactly. And who won the Super Bowl?

Exactly. And who won the Super Bowl?

Thus why my analysis said that AutO was a support player for a better team (only given the 2011-2012 season, Patriots fans). However, you cannot possibly argue that if this were a comparison of NFL players, that Tynes would be better than Brady.

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 26, 2012, 01:14:23 PM

AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'".

False. AutO can be used to get Jacob to band to Judges and can search/recur heroes.

Right. So AutO is an additional piece of a combo that is almost as effective with just Moses and Aaron. Big deal.

I don't want to diminish AutO at all, in fact, he's a great Hero who is deserving of placing high in the tournament. But when it comes down to it, Joe is just simply a better Hero. When you block Joe without Writ or Charms active, and are unable to negate his ability, there is very little chance you will win. His initiative and CBN battlewinners are too good. Then he can easily be protected from capture by Caves, and combos really well with HT. If you block Gideon or Samuel, the best choices you can pick with AutO, you will almost certainly have initiative. Versus Samuel you have all the same options as you do vs. Joe, plus more likely to have initiative. When you block Gideon, you can play anything that ends the battle, or protects/shuffles LSs. And even so, all you need to beat Gideon outright is to block with an NT EC and use Herod's Temple to stop his one good battle winner.

If AutO didn't d2, this wouldn't even be close. As it is, it should rightfully be close, but I think Joe still has the edge.

Actually, on the subject of AUtO fitting into a Genesis deck, I think Isaac should be reprinted as a blue/gold hero, because I believe it's reasonable to assume that, because he was his father, Isaac would have been the judge of Israel.

-ba dum tsst-

For that matter Joseph would also be utterly useless in a Sam deck...

Can Oak win in battle without other hero support? (lets include forts/arts/enhancements)
Can Joe win in battle without other hero support? (lets include forts/arts/enhancements)

On that basis, Joe crushes Oak. Its not even close. The only thing that Oak real has for itself is D2 and he is easily nerfed by Nazareth and RBD, pretty common cards used in the new meta.

AUTO out of spite. Asahel Jacob was better

Fixed. Joe shouldn't have made it out of his brigade.

Can Oak win in battle without other hero support? (lets include forts/arts/enhancements)
Can Joe win in battle without other hero support? (lets include forts/arts/enhancements)

On that basis, Joe crushes Oak. Its not even close. The only thing that Oak real has for itself is D2 and he is easily nerfed by Nazareth and RBD, pretty common cards used in the new meta.

If you want to bring Nazareth into it, Genesis is completely shut down by Nazareth. They don't have enough drawing to compensate for losing all of their search and they don't have any real way of shutting down sites (Sam decks at least have Angel with the Secret Name). If RBD and Nazareth are both up, then yes, Angel Under the Oak gets shut down, however, so does Genesis, and Joseph is pretty useless without his three enhancements.

AUTO can't win without hero support.
Joe can't win without enhancement support.

Neither are perfect. But I'll take bulletproof gideon and the worlds most epic banding chain over interrupt-able protection from discard. I mean have you ever played with bulletproof gideon? I don't think a no SA hero has ever been more fun.

Have you ever used Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+ Spiritual Warfare for a soul, then next turn Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+RTC's for a second soul, then on the next turn Joe+JBP for 3 straight souls?

I use AuTO, Samuel, Gideon, Isaiah, Jacob, and Joseph in my deck and by far the most effective hero in the deck is Joseph.

and how many times have you actually pulled that off with no hiccups? More importantly in your comparison of the heroes you took away the best thing AUTO has, and Joseph won, but neglected to mention that if you take away Joe's enhancements he has nothing.

If you take away both characters best stuff you have AUTO at an 8/8 D2. Joe is a 2/2 with interrupt-able protection from discard.

Honestly I don't really care about either simply because TGW is 10x better than both. I feel like it takes being played against with this card for people to figure out that she is..... awesome.

I voted AUTO simply for the same reasons as RW, he is closer to TGW than Joseph.

TGW is really only good in niche strategies that wait until the end-game to really make a move. I agree she's fantastic, especially when combined with I Am Holy and Storehouse, however, she's not present in top themes, and doesn't often actually make rescues by herself.

Both AUTO and Joseph are present in top themes. He didn't say they had to be the staple in the theme, just present.

If Joseph was reprinted in Red and his ability were changed to make some good Red battle winners CBN, then he would be just as good of a Hero as he is now. If Angel Under the Oak said the same thing except he fetched a Disciple and made Andrew protected from everything CBN, he'd still be a great Hero.

As one who judges by the deck (and even if I went anywhere near trying to judge in a vacuum), I would agree that these characters might still be great if tuned for other themes, but their usefulness would be re-defined to reflect the usefulness of that theme. They may still be great heroes, but they would be completely different heroes with different usefulnesses depending on the theme they were tuned for. You can't compare real heroes using theoretical heroes, just as you can't compare heroes to football players, the latter of which can be traded and compared in a near-vacuum.

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2012, 05:02:43 PM

AUTO can't win without hero support.
Joe can't win without enhancement support.

Neither are perfect. But I'll take bulletproof gideon and the worlds most epic banding chain over interrupt-able protection from discard. I mean have you ever played with bulletproof gideon? I don't think a no SA hero has ever been more fun.

Have you ever used Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+ Spiritual Warfare for a soul, then next turn Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+RTC's for a second soul, then on the next turn Joe+JBP for 3 straight souls?

I use AuTO, Samuel, Gideon, Isaiah, Jacob, and Joseph in my deck and by far the most effective hero in the deck is Joseph.

Yup. But then have they blocked with KoT. Yup. But then my opponent used a different brigade. Yup. But then my used an auto block.

Have you ever done Angel Under the Oak D2 > Sam D2 > Armorbearer >Izzy Archer > Ishy D3 w/ Fs > Asahel > to any thing else
There you have a D7 band that you can do every turn, with tons of other options, and plenty of battle winers to go with it.