Author Topic: The Finals - Joseph or The Angel Under the Oak (Read 8234 times)

Bryon · « **on:** March 25, 2012, 10:48:01 PM »

Which is the better Redemption hero?

Two rookies have defeated experienced powerhouse heroes to face each other in the finals.

Which is better: Joseph VS AutO

2 brigades VS 2 cards

A hero who is discard-proof VS a hero who makes another hero opponent-proof

A hero who is easily brought (back) into play VS a hero who easily brings other heroes (back) into play

There is a lot to consider here. Cast you vote!

Red Wing · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2012, 10:52:02 PM »

Sam decks > Genesis decks. AutO wins.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2012, 10:55:09 PM »

This really SHOULD be Sam vs AUTO, which would actually be a tough decision, since the two really go together. However, I think even then AUTO would win, for versatility and Gideon invincibility.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2012, 10:59:46 PM »

I'm surprised this is a blowout so far, honestly. I figured enough people would hate Sam to keep Prof Oak from an easy win. At any rate, I totally called AUtO winning (so did half the board) so I feel pretty good. He deserves it.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2012, 10:59:59 PM »

I think that there are a couple of things to tilt this in favor of AUTO. First, Joseph's protect can be prevented, interrupted, negated, whatever. AUTO's cannot. I do like Joseph's small size and ability to use HT, but AUTO can draw and get you whoever you need to set up your combo.

And once your combo is set up, you always start the battle with him to draw, and they can't touch him again until he's in territory. Joseph isn't always going to be your choice, even in his own deck, because of the other options you have (and what enhancements are in hand). The every-turn use of AUTO makes him my choice.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2012, 11:07:11 PM »

AUTO can work in a deck that utilizes TGW. He's better.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:12:33 AM »

My vote is going Joesph's way. He is the better Hero. Professor Oak has a lot of stuff around him, as does Joe, but at the end of the day Joe rescues souls and AutO rarely even stays in battle.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:16:17 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 26, 2012, 01:12:33 AM

My vote is going Joesph's way. He is the better Hero. Professor Oak has a lot of stuff around him, as does Joe, but at the end of the day Joe rescues souls and AutO rarely even stays in battle.

I really don't like hearing this. I don't think people realize how many tight spots AutO can get one out of when he has Wheel on him. Being protected from Christian Martyr and Writ is a big deal in my opinion.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #8 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:17:14 AM »

It can be, yes, but what CBN battle-winners does Oak have?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #9 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:21:17 AM »

I'm not saying I'd use him as my first option, but if I - for whatever reason - know my opponent has Christian Martyr in hand and Unholy Writ is up, he's good for a rescue or two. Until the dust settles from the rule changes and we see what kind of defenses we're looking at, CBN battle winners don't even matter right now because the meta defense is still the meta defense. He doesn't have the actual rescue power that Joseph does, but he also has a couple advantages over Joseph when making a rescue attempt.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #10 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:27:50 AM »

I look at it this way. Oak is +2, Joe is

.

Oak can protect someone else who's 6/6 from opponents, Joe protects himself (who's 2/2) from Discard.

Joe is a Prophet and a Genesis character and all the Brigades that entails. Oak is Silver.

Artifacts and fortresses can be used to make Joseph more powerful. W3 can make Oak more powerful.

Joe fears only Uzzah or KoT+CM out of the meta defense, and won't even let SB D3. Oak (w/W3) fears everything except CM and Writ.

Some of this also comes from the fact that I've recently made an incursion into T2 and Joe is about a billion times better than Oak.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #11 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:44:55 AM »

How does Joseph prevent SB from the D3 other than one specific enhancement? Joe also fears Writ in the meta defense because realistically, Obi's Caves is a wasted slot in a Genesis deck when you're only using it with one hero. I definitely disagree that Joe is better than Oak in T2.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** March 26, 2012, 02:03:18 AM »

Only using it with one Hero that wins by himself and is searched out extremely easily.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #13 on:** March 26, 2012, 07:20:00 AM »

Genesis is bad in T2. Joseph could see use in a prophets deck, but I doubt he'd be used much there. AUTO is good in T2. Therefore, AUTO wins.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #14 on:** March 26, 2012, 09:54:35 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 26, 2012, 01:27:50 AM

Some of this also comes from the fact that I've recently made an incursion into T2

When did this happen? And who has a fatted calf that I can kill for the feast?

While AutO is part of an overall better T2 offense, Joseph is the cornerstone of one of the best plays in T2 (Joe+HT+CotW). I've yet to lose a game with my Genesis offense when I can pull that off by turn three (and since Rachel can search for Joseph, and Answered Prayer/Stone Pillar can search for CotW, it can happen fairly often). When I pull fifteen Gen Heroes out of my deck and then pull a bunch more EC's out with Eve, I basically have my deck setup before you've gotten through a fifth of your deck.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #15 on:** March 26, 2012, 09:59:15 AM »

I'm with Pol on this one, I've got to go with Joe. I really dislike AutO but I tried to set my bias aside to make a fair judgement.

If it weren't for the new rule changes I would have definitely voted for AutO, but since I think that the new rule helped Genesis to close the gap on Sam a little, the Sam > Gen argument has less impact for me.

I'll take Joe's protection from discard and inish over Gideon's protection any day. Joe can get a + 1 which helps AutO's +2 lacks the impact that it would have against other non-drawing characters, though of course the advantage there goes to AutO.

AutO can get some fun combos up, but if we're talking combos, AutO soon find that he can't come close to Joe because of HT. We're talking CotW massiveness, ANB potential, and some of those Genesis search cards can cause some really fun situations too. The Advantage here has to go to Joe if for no other reason that Joe plays ANB.

Then you have to think about all the ways there are to bring Joe back into the game, Judah, Rachel, Asher. How many ways does AutO have to get back into the game? Chamber? But who actually uses that in their Sam deck?

I'm going to go with Joe here, I think that he wins more souls. This isn't the popular opinion, but I almost always cheer for the underdog and that goes even beyond MM, so it's unlikely that I'll change my vote.

lp670sv · « **Reply #16 on:** March 26, 2012, 10:43:06 AM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 26, 2012, 09:59:15 AM

I'll take Joe's protection from discard and inish over Gideon's protection any day.

You'd rather take interrupt-able protection from discard over CBN protection from literally anything? I'm sorry but lolwut? Only one of the hundreds of situations in which this is more useful is when your opponent tries to use grapes to block and you get to say "So you're handing me soul then?"

Wings of Music · « **Reply #17 on:** March 26, 2012, 11:31:07 AM »

Yup becasue Joe's protection is for all the sons of Jacob, so WoS and Plot are useless against him.

Plus Gideon is only 6/6, it's easy to get enough numbers to stalemate against him.

Red Wing · « **Reply #18 on:** March 26, 2012, 11:36:39 AM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 26, 2012, 11:31:07 AM

Plus Gideon is only 6/6, it's easy to get enough numbers to stalemate against him.

Then they play Sam's Edict or Deb's Directive…

Wings of Music · « **Reply #19 on:** March 26, 2012, 11:38:27 AM »

Quote from: Red Wing on March 26, 2012, 11:36:39 AM

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 26, 2012, 11:31:07 AM
Plus Gideon is only 6/6, it's easy to get enough numbers to stalemate against him.
Then they play Sam's Edict or Deb's Directive…

Those worries are non-specific to Gideon though...

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #20 on:** March 26, 2012, 11:58:57 AM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 26, 2012, 11:38:27 AM

Quote from: Red Wing on March 26, 2012, 11:36:39 AM
Quote from: Wings of Music on March 26, 2012, 11:31:07 AM
Plus Gideon is only 6/6, it's easy to get enough numbers to stalemate against him.
Then they play Sam's Edict or Deb's Directive…

Those worries are non-specific to Gideon though...

Wait, what? Two CBN battle winners that are both arguably better than any of Joseph's battle winners are somehow written off because they're "non-specific"? That's ridiculous.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #21 on:** March 26, 2012, 12:24:49 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 26, 2012, 01:12:33 AM

My vote is going Joesph's way. He is the better Hero. Professor Oak has a lot of stuff around him, as does Joe, but at the end of the day Joe rescues souls and AutO rarely even stays in battle.

I also agree with Pol's breakdown of the analysis.

theselfevident · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2012, 12:42:05 PM »

What it comes down to to me is this:
Who has the better chance of winning a soul for you... If Nazareth+Rain Becomes Dust are up early, Oak becomes Nerfed and so does the offense that surrounds him plus he lacks battle winning enhancements... In comparison, you add Obby's Caves + all the enhancements Joeseph can use (green & blue) + Hidden Treasures makes Joe the better hero.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:14:23 PM »

I think of AutO as a good support Hero on the best team in the league. If we were to use the 2011-2012 NFL season, he'd be Lawrence Tynes, a solid kicker who the Giants needed in order to be successful, but certainly wasn't a superstar all by himself.

Then there's Joseph, who is the best/second best Hero (depending on your thoughts about Jacob) on the league's second best team. Which means he'd be like Tom Brady.

AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'". So while he is over in Judges/Sam decks kicking field goals, definitely improving your chances to win, Joseph is leading his team down the field with a whole host of options at his disposal for successful touchdown drives.

theselfevident · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:17:36 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 26, 2012, 01:14:23 PM

I think of AutO as a good support Hero on the best team in the league. If we were to use the 2011-2012 NFL season, he'd be Lawrence Tynes, a solid kicker who the Giants needed in order to be successful, but certainly wasn't a superstar all by himself.

Then there's Joseph, who is the best/second best Hero (depending on your thoughts about Jacob) on the league's second best team. Which means he'd be like Tom Brady.

AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'". So while he is over in Judges/Sam decks kicking field goals, definitely improving your chances to win, Joseph is leading his team down the field with a whole host of options at his disposal for successful touchdown drives.

I hate Tom Brady, but I agree with this assessment!

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Author Topic: The Finals - Joseph or The Angel Under the Oak (Read 8234 times)

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Rawrlolsauce!

Chronic Apathy