Author Topic: Round 3 - Red - Asahel or Centurion at Calvary (Read 4373 times)

Bryon · « **on:** March 18, 2011, 02:05:24 PM »

Which is the better Redemption hero?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2011, 05:14:47 PM »

No contest here...

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2011, 05:20:30 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 18, 2011, 05:14:47 PM

No contest here...

Which is why Jepthah should be here instead. That would've at least been a decent match-up.

Spy would've also been a better match-up.

Amasai would've also been a better match-up.

What happened to all those guys?

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2011, 06:12:19 PM »

They were eliminated because they're not very good cards. I didn't even put spy in my top 8.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2011, 06:29:46 PM »

Jepthah is the only only legit Red hero.

CJSports · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2011, 06:30:50 PM »

CaC is a good splash but not very good for solid red and that's why it isn't as good as it could be.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2011, 08:34:48 PM »

Why would you not use it for solid red?

Master KChief · « **Reply #7 on:** March 18, 2011, 08:38:11 PM »

im more curious to know why he thinks its good splash.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #8 on:** March 18, 2011, 08:57:42 PM »

29-1. Finally the result is working out how it should.

Josh · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2011, 11:21:50 PM »

So if Asahel >>> CaC... And CaC's ability is in just about every conceivable way >>> than John's (starter) ability... And Prof U thinks John starter > ET/Thad... Is Asahel >>>>> Thad?

Either that, or one of the above inequalities is not accurate. Or is it that, by merely being in a weaker brigade, CaC <<< John Starter?

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2011, 11:40:46 PM »

Or by not being a TGT hero

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2011, 12:08:48 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on March 18, 2011, 11:21:50 PM

And CaC's ability is in just about every conceivable way >>> than John's (starter) ability

one of the above inequalities is not accurate.

There's the problem. CaC is in a weaker brigade than John. He is not a disciple (therefore does not help to make Thad invincible). He is not a TGT hero. And he doesn't get to play AoCP. CaC is nowhere near as good as John.

Josh · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2011, 10:40:04 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on March 19, 2011, 12:08:48 AM

There's the problem. CaC is in a weaker brigade than John. He is not a disciple (therefore does not help to make Thad invincible). He is not a TGT hero. And he doesn't get to play AoCP. CaC is nowhere near as good as John.

I understand your reasoning, and I agree with it. I think it speaks to the deficiency of Red as a brigade and why it won't be competitive anytime soon.

Honestly, cards like TSA, Captain, other FBTN heroes, AoCP, Thaddeus, ET, Jacob, Phinehas/Zeal, etc are so OP that they will probably be useful and competitive forever. Red has zero cards like that, and with the new emphasis on making "useful cards that are balanced and not OP" (see the Disciples expansion), Red will never get the cards to make CaC be as good or better than John.

Can anyone see Red becoming a stand-alone offense in T1 without getting some seriously powerful (or one or two OP) cards? Honestly.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2011, 11:23:05 PM »

Yes. An offense that consists of cards that are 'great' would be better than an offense of cards that are 'good' with an op or too.

Then again, the PTB printed Thad just last set. Who says red isn't going to get anything OP'd?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2011, 11:39:26 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on March 19, 2011, 10:40:04 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on March 19, 2011, 12:08:48 AM
There's the problem. CaC is in a weaker brigade than John. He is not a disciple (therefore does not help to make Thad invincible). He is not a TGT hero. And he doesn't get to play AoCP. CaC is nowhere near as good as John.
I understand your reasoning, and I agree with it. I think it speaks to the deficiency of Red as a brigade and why it won't be competitive anytime soon.

Honestly, cards like TSA, Captain, other FBTN heroes, AoCP, Thaddeus, ET, Jacob, Phinehas/Zeal, etc are so OP that they will probably be useful and competitive forever. Red has zero cards like that, and with the new emphasis on making "useful cards that are balanced and not OP" (see the Disciples expansion), Red will never get the cards to make CaC be as good or better than John.

Can anyone see Red becoming a stand-alone offense in T1 without getting some seriously powerful (or one or two OP) cards? Honestly.

I can

I'm bookmarking this, we'll come back to it after nationals ok?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2011, 12:10:04 AM »

Red Heroes should rank something like this:

Asahel
Spy
Centurion at Capernaum
Centurion at Calvary
Abishai
Jephthah
Amasai
Seeker

Once upon a time Jephthah would have topped that list. But now that Red Heroes really need to be WC to be effective, he's just another guy.

Either way, I was not at all surprised to see Asahel dominating.

Bryon · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2011, 01:15:56 AM »

When we are developing cards for a new set, there is often a tug-of-war in card balancing. The OP cards in Redemption are typically cards that got bumped up one too many times in the development process - without any voices saying "I've tested this extensively and it is just too strong. Let's take it back down a notch."

If Thaddeus can get bumped up 3 levels in playtesting to the point where he was when printed, then I expect that can happen in another brigade as well.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2011, 02:04:13 AM »

Quote

Honestly, cards like TSA, Captain, other FBTN heroes, AoCP, Thaddeus, ET, Jacob, Phinehas/Zeal, etc are so OP that they will probably be useful and competitive forever. Red has zero cards like that, and with the new emphasis on making "useful cards that are balanced and not OP" (see the Disciples expansion), Red will never get the cards to make CaC be as good or better than John.

Let's look at this piece by piece:

FbtN Heroes: Red lacks. (shared with Teal, White, and Purple)
A CBN battlewinner without conditions or restrictions: Red lacks. (shared with Blue, White, Silver, Green)
The most powerful Hero in the game: Red lacks. (shared with everything other than Purple)
Pre-block playing: Red lacks. (shared with White, Silver and Gold)
A big Hero with a useful SA: Red lacks. (shared with Gold and Blue)

Red just doesn't have anything of the major selling points for a Brigade other than a CTB character. They also have no CBN banding, no territory destruction, no Ignore (pre-block or otherwise), no support Fortress, and no Recursion Hero.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2011, 09:38:22 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 20, 2011, 02:04:13 AM

A big Hero with a useful SA: Red lacks. (shared with Gold and Blue)

Red has Amasai, which is pretty awesome, although shut down by Nazareth. Blue has Levi and Simeon, too.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** March 20, 2011, 10:27:03 AM »

Ooh, forgot about those two. I wouldn't count Amasi because his SA isn't battle-useful.

The Guardian · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2011, 05:12:50 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 20, 2011, 10:27:03 AM

Ooh, forgot about those two. I wouldn't count Amasi because his SA isn't battle-useful.

I agree with most of your points about Red, but an early Amasi can be pretty destructive. You will win battles just based on the fact your opponent has so few EEs left to use.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #21 on:** March 20, 2011, 07:14:02 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 20, 2011, 05:12:50 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 20, 2011, 10:27:03 AM
Ooh, forgot about those two. I wouldn't count Amasi because his SA isn't battle-useful.

I agree with most of your points about Red, but an early Amasi can be pretty destructive. You will win battles just based on the fact your opponent has so few EEs left to use.

. That's also why Gabriel is so awesome, except he's a bit better.

News:

Poll

Which is the better Redemption hero?

Author Topic: Round 3 - Red - Asahel or Centurion at Calvary (Read 4373 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

TheHobbit13

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!