Author Topic: Round 2 - White - Salome or Daniel (Read 8390 times)

Master KChief · « **Reply #25 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:09:25 PM »

The banding options are terrible. Looking at the hand is a novelty. 1 point for the whole thing considering you can only do 1 or the other. And you weighted it the same as him being a prophet, which is not even nearly true.

Giving Daniel 1.5 points because of Green/White is like giving him points because he is Green. If we're going by that, then we give Salome 1.5 points for being White. Again, he negates anything useful the White portion will ever use. And Daniel in his best theme will never use White enhancements. Zero points across the board.

Salome gets +4 for tutoring TGT because its plussing for your 3rd, 4th, and 5th SoG.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:19:40 PM »

Fine I'll make Daniel a simple + 1 for being white/green instead of a 1.5. I just looked at the banding options again, they aren't as good as I originally though, but they aren't that bad, Abednego who CBN bands to another Daniel hero (like Mike with Angel's sword, or Kings Gabe) is a pretty decent band if you ask me (not great but decent). Look at hand is one of the best abilities in the game, because it helps you as a player make smarter decisions, can Salome help you make smarter decisions? That being said, I'll go ahead knock down that particular ability down a half point since it's an either or.

And I still say Salome shouldn't get a +4 for tutoring, I rarely see TGT getting three lost souls a game, maybe two but hardly ever three.

Master KChief · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:22:20 PM »

Then you should add a point to Salome being White. Clearly you didnt see my point.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #28 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:27:37 PM »

No I see your point, but I don't agree with it, as Red Wing pointed out there is still, FF, and Words to use in O.T. white. There are others too, Undefiled is an awesome enhancement to use and it can only be used by an O.T. hero. Daniel deserves to have an edge for having two colors.

And Salome shouldn't get a +4 for tutoring, I agree it's nice, but not that nice. It isn't always useful, while Daniel's look at hand and negate ECs is always useful.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #29 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:40:05 PM »

Salome gets *.2 for being redundant.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #30 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:41:10 PM »

How is tutoring TGT not that nice? She tutors the 3rd most powerful card in the game. She should be getting extra points for that.

Master KChief · « **Reply #31 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:45:58 PM »

Exactly. It gives yourself 2 times of the odds of going into sacky rescues.

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 12, 2012, 04:27:37 PM

No I see your point, but I don't agree with it, as Red Wing pointed out there is still, FF, and Words to use in O.T. white. There are others too, Undefiled is an awesome enhancement to use and it can only be used by an O.T. hero. Daniel deserves to have an edge for having two colors.

Lets put it this way. Lets have Daniel be Green/Pink. That is exactly the same as having White on Daniel. In any competitive deck with Daniel in it, less than zero percent of the enhancements will be White.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #32 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:47:14 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on March 12, 2012, 04:45:58 PM

Exactly. It gives yourself 2 times of the odds of going into sacky rescues.

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 12, 2012, 04:27:37 PM
No I see your point, but I don't agree with it, as Red Wing pointed out there is still, FF, and Words to use in O.T. white. There are others too, Undefiled is an awesome enhancement to use and it can only be used by an O.T. hero. Daniel deserves to have an edge for having two colors.

Lets put it this way. Lets have Daniel be Green/Pink. That is exactly the same as having White on Daniel. In any competitive deck with Daniel in it, less than zero percent of the enhancements will be White.

And this time, his percentage is actually correct.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #33 on:** March 12, 2012, 04:55:35 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 12, 2012, 04:41:10 PM

How is tutoring TGT not that nice? She tutors the 3rd most powerful card in the game. She should be getting extra points for that.

It's nice but not 'that' nice, Search tutors any number of the most powerful cards in the game but not all decks use it. Why? well because it doesn't win battles, it can help you get to where you win battles but it doesn't actually win battles. Simply tutoring doesn't win a battle, but countering the meta defense by negating and banding does.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 12, 2012, 04:45:58 PM

Lets put it this way. Lets have Daniel be Green/Pink. That is exactly the same as having White on Daniel. In any competitive deck with Daniel in it, less than zero percent of the enhancements will be White.

Ummm no, not necessarily true, Daniel decks can contain white, silver, and green in them.

Now this deck may not be competitive, but then no deck using green or doing non-TGT white won't be competitive, so if your factoring that in there I guess Salome would be the better hero. The problem I have with that is that we are having a contest for the best hero, not the best deck. Simply put, I don't think we should vote down a good hero just because he doesn't fit into Sam or Gardenciples deck. When you remove the overall competitiveness of the deck from the picture, Daniel becomes the better hero.

browarod · « **Reply #34 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:01:37 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 12, 2012, 04:55:35 PM

Simply put, I don't think we should vote down a good hero just because he doesn't fit into Sam or Gardenciples deck. When you remove the overall competitiveness of the deck from the picture, Daniel becomes the better hero.

The problem with this is that you can't win the game with just one, lone hero: you have to have a deck. And while I don't think voting on meta archetype is good, you have to consider the kind of deck in which the hero would be used in order to find the true best hero.

A 1/1 pink brigade hero who is CBN protected from everything would be an awesome hero, but he wouldn't be the best because you can't win a battle with a 1/1 hero that has no enhancements.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #35 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:09:17 PM »

If he's N.T. I could convert the EC with preaching the truth. So there!

My point is the pink brigade illustration is just semantics, it has no bearing on the discussion.

I think that we are missing the point of MM if we vote so heavily on what deck the character is in, we are supposed to be looking for the best hero, not the best deck.

If you want to use that as a kind of tie-breaker I think that's fine, but I don't think it should be the primary factor in the decision making process.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #36 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:10:40 PM »

Daniel's look at hand ability is almost entirely irrelevant because the main reason you'd look at somebody's hand is to know what hero to rescue with (and U&T is the only thing that can do that).

Daniel's band ability is irrelevant because anybody you'd want to band to is terrible. Let's face it, a Daniel deck won't win anything (unless you're an Alstad, but then you could probably win with a Lamenting deck)

Daniel's being white is irrelevant because he doesn't play white enhancements. He plays green because he doesn't belong in a white deck. He's not easily splashable in a (good) white deck, and without the support in green he's really not that good.

Daniel's negating N.T. enhancements is basically irrelevant. Negating Just a Hireling and Tenants Kill the Son is nice, but there's no other used N.T. enhancements (and it'll just come back to hurt you if you are playing white).

Daniel's negating fortresses is almost irrelevant. Hitting Kingdoms with a Provisions on him is basically the only use for it, and that's T2 only.

Daniel's negating evil characters is really really nice.

Daniel being a prophet is nice, due to Obediah's Caves, but there are other, better, prophets out there.

Daniel being CBN is irrelevant because the only thing that would negate him would be CwD, and that accomplishes exactly what Daniel's trying to accomplish anyway (negating Uzzah and KoT).

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 12, 2012, 06:09:17 PM

I think that we are missing the point of MM if we vote so heavily on what deck the character is in, we are supposed to be looking for the best hero, not the best deck.

A man is only as good as his woman, as they say. A hero is only as good as his deck. Furthermore, if other cards make a hero better they should be considered (especially if a hero can search for said support card

). If we throw out TGT and MMOJ, we throw out Obediah's Caves, all heroes that Daniel can band to. Also, taking meta game into account would not be just looking at the best hero, and a hero like Nicodemus may be great against Phars, but not worthy of nomination due to being terrible against the usual defense.

Everything is subjective at this point.

Master KChief · « **Reply #37 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:18:58 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 12, 2012, 06:10:40 PM

Daniel's look at hand ability is almost entirely irrelevant because the main reason you'd look at somebody's hand is to know what hero to rescue with (and U&T is the only thing that can do that).

Daniel's band ability is irrelevant because anybody you'd want to band to is terrible. Let's face it, a Daniel deck won't win anything (unless you're an Alstad, but then you could probably win with a Lamenting deck)

Daniel's being white is irrelevant because he doesn't play white enhancements. He plays green because he doesn't belong in a white deck. He's not easily splashable in a (good) white deck, and without the support in green he's really not that good.

Daniel's negating N.T. enhancements is basically irrelevant. Negating Just a Hireling and Tenants Kill the Son is nice, but there's no other used N.T. enhancements (and it'll just come back to hurt you if you are playing white).

Daniel's negating fortresses is almost irrelevant. Hitting Kingdoms with a Provisions on him is basically the only use for it, and that's T2 only.

Daniel's negating evil characters is really really nice.

Daniel being a prophet is nice, due to Obediah's Caves, but there are other, better, prophets out there.

Daniel being CBN is irrelevant because the only thing that would negate him would be CwD, and that accomplishes exactly what Daniel's trying to accomplish anyway (negating Uzzah and KoT).

And based on these very reasons, I thought I judged Daniel very fairly in point distribution.

browarod · « **Reply #38 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:40:53 PM »

Daniel negates Caves....

Master KChief · « **Reply #39 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:46:28 PM »

1/2 point deduction in the Prophet category?

I completely forgot about that. But it's still good he has access to HT, cards that say 'if used by a prophet...', etc.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #40 on:** March 12, 2012, 06:58:23 PM »

Lots of haters pointing out he's not very good
People vehemently defending him with semi-flimsy statistics.
He's the underdog.
He's still winning anyway.

Daniel is Tim Tebow.

(This means that MMoJ is the Patriots)

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #41 on:** March 12, 2012, 07:20:48 PM »

Quote from: browarod on March 12, 2012, 06:40:53 PM

Daniel negates Caves....

Wow. I had actually considered making a Daniel deck until I realized this. I would use Holy of Holies, but his CBN destroys that and it would also have eliminated the only good thing about Daniel.

Daniel's a terrible hero.

Master KChief · « **Reply #42 on:** March 12, 2012, 07:27:45 PM »

Pretty much. Its nice that Prophets got its version of a FBTN-ish Hero, but regular FBTN heroes do that job vastly better. And honestly, all his 1-pointers are abilities many players can live without.

CJSports · « **Reply #43 on:** March 12, 2012, 07:41:50 PM »

And yet Daniel is still winning this.

Josh · « **Reply #44 on:** March 12, 2012, 11:18:43 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 12, 2012, 06:10:40 PM

Daniel's negating N.T. enhancements is basically irrelevant. Negating Just a Hireling and Tenants Kill the Son is nice, but there's no other used N.T. enhancements (and it'll just come back to hurt you if you are playing white).

I agree, banding in Daniel after TKtS or other NT CBP battlewinners is a good strategy

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #45 on:** March 12, 2012, 11:40:52 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on March 12, 2012, 11:18:43 PM

I agree, banding in Daniel after TKtS or other NT CBP battlewinners is a good strategy

I've been against Daniel from the start, but now I wouldn't have even nominated him.

Daniel is really bad. He stops Uzzah. That's about it.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #46 on:** March 13, 2012, 10:54:48 AM »

Quote from: browarod on March 12, 2012, 06:40:53 PM

Daniel negates Caves....

Oh wow didn't think about this, I'll adjust things accordingly.

Still, my main issue in voting for Dan is not that Dan is so good, but that Salome is not that good, I'm considering her as a TGT hero (I give her a +4 for that), however KChief's initial rating for Salome gave her a +4 for searching for TGT, I would say that this is a 3 at best.

Searching is good yes, however in the majority of the games that I have played with TGT Salome's ability has not made a difference in that game, because she usually ends up negated by KoT or she doesn't get out at all.

EDIT: Impact Calculus list updated.

Daniel
Anti-meta: +4
Band or Look at hand: +2
Green/White: + 1
Negate fortresses: + 1
Negate NT enhancements: + 1
Prophet: + 1.5
CBN: + 1
TOTAL: 11.5

Salome
TGT user: +4
TGT tutor: +3
NT Female: +2
NT covenant tutor: + 1
Ignore EC's holding weapons: + 1
TOTAL: 11

I've updated this significantly from my original assessment, but my assessment still has Dan winning by a half point.

soul seeker · « **Reply #47 on:** March 13, 2012, 11:17:55 AM »

Here is my argument...

....I voted for Salome out of spite.

Question: why are any of you paying attention to these "numbers/calculus/etc."? They appear made up and arbitrary to me.
^This is more of a curiosity, because I will continue to vote against Daniel out of spite.^

Wings of Music · « **Reply #48 on:** March 13, 2012, 12:33:39 PM »

Answer: We need something to argue about duh....

stefferweffer · « **Reply #49 on:** March 13, 2012, 12:39:34 PM »

You forgot Daniel's cool card art, fancy gold border and "National Promo" language at the bottom. That's gotta be at least another + 163 or so for Daniel

News:

Poll

Which is the better Redemption hero?

Author Topic: Round 2 - White - Salome or Daniel (Read 8390 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

browarod

Warrior_Monk

browarod

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk