Author Topic: Round 2 - Red - Ahimelek or Ishamiah (Read 4329 times)

Bryon · « **on:** March 10, 2012, 01:10:22 AM »

Which is the better Redemption hero?

Ahimelek the Hittite
Ishmaiah the Gibeonite

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2012, 01:44:34 AM »

This is the only round 2 matchup so far that was tough for me.

Ahimelek will almost always win a LS after he has been Ambushed with David in play. And his protection from capture is also really nice. Ishmaiah on the other hand usually just draws cards (although he occasionally shuts down an Uzzah or Sabbath Breaker), but he is probably in a lot of banding chains that end up taking LSs.

I ended up going with Ahimelek because he really only needs 2 other cards to be an almost guaranteed LS, while Ishmaiah needs more support to actually be successful.

Master KChief · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2012, 01:51:23 AM »

Ish + Asahel + Ira/Ben means I d1 and walk in for a soul. Every turn.

Red Wing · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2012, 08:34:14 AM »

Tough, but drawing gives Ishmaiah the edge.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2012, 10:50:45 AM »

Quote from: Red Wing on March 10, 2012, 08:34:14 AM

Tough, but drawing gives Ishmaiah the edge.

Funny, I gave Ish the edge because he can shut down meta.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2012, 10:55:03 AM »

Ahimilek, how many other heroes have an SA that can win a battle just on the SA?

Answer: Not many (ok maybe a few FBTN guys...)

Ishmiah, just piles onto Sam's drawing, but Ahimilek helps make Sam win the RA.

cookie monster · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2012, 01:03:06 PM »

But this one is still so close.

I voted for Ahimelek

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2012, 01:32:44 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on March 10, 2012, 01:44:34 AM

This is the only round 2 matchup so far that was tough for me.

Ahimelek will almost always win a LS after he has been Ambushed with David in play. And his protection from capture is also really nice. Ishmaiah on the other hand usually just draws cards (although he occasionally shuts down an Uzzah or Sabbath Breaker), but he is probably in a lot of banding chains that end up taking LSs.

I ended up going with Ahimelek because he really only needs 2 other cards to be an almost guaranteed LS, while Ishmaiah needs more support to actually be successful.

Of course, Ahimelek is vulnerable to Christian Martyr and banding chains, whereas Ishy is much, much less so.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:02:40 PM »

This is absurd. Ishy is so good. He should be in the finals (or semis if he meets Oak).

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:43:58 PM »

So a hero that has potential to draw 3, band and be banded to, and negate almost the entire meta defense is apparently not good enough to beat a hero that requires specific set ups to win on his own (and is, even then, prone to being CM'd) with capture protection? I have problems with that.

Bryon · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:55:17 PM »

Around here, Rain Becomes Dust makes Ishmaiah a liability, not an asset. There is no "may" in his draw ability. He's a bench warmer in a lot of games.

Also, The Silver Trumpets + Ahimelek is pretty good. King Amazing + Ahimelek is crazy good.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:12:24 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 10, 2012, 02:55:17 PM

Around here, Rain Becomes Dust makes Ishmaiah a liability, not an asset. There is no "may" in his draw ability. He's a bench warmer in a lot of games.

Except that Samuel decks are faster than pretty much any deck using Rain Becomes Dust so Ishy can probably get a draw in while negatine Uzzah et all.

Quote

Also, The Silver Trumpets + Ahimelek is pretty good. King Amazing + Ahimelek is crazy good.

You know what else is good? Oak to Eli-Sam-Armorbearer-Ish-Asahel-King Saul/David. That's negating all EC abilities with toughness less than 7. That's pretty much incredible.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:29:49 PM »

yeah but that's six heroes other than Ishmiah that you're factoring in there. Sure Ishmiah has the potential to be good, but he requires set up too. Additionally the guy that makes that banding chain good is Sam more that Ishmiah, because Sam is the one that allows the band to get out fast, so but voting Ishmiah because he's in that band is voting for Sam more than it is Ishmiah.

In the examples of of cards like the silver trumpets, King Amazing, or wool fleece, those cards aren't good because they are good but becasue Ahimilek makes them good.

In the case of Ishmiah's banding chains, the win not because Ishmiah is so good, but because other cards make him good. Even Ishmiah's own ability relies on 6 other cards being present, while Ahimilek only requires one or two other cards being present.

See the difference? While Ahimileks greatness makes other cards better, Ishmiah relies on other cards to make him better. For this reason I vote Ahimilek.

Red Wing · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:51:10 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on March 10, 2012, 03:29:49 PM

While Ahimileks greatness makes other cards better, Ishmiah relies on other cards to make him better. For this reason I vote Ahimilek.

If everyone voted according to this, FBTN heroes would win every time.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:54:46 PM »

1. How does you statement follow from the quoted statement?

2. How does that make me wrong?

Red Wing · « **Reply #15 on:** March 10, 2012, 04:08:34 PM »

misread your post, never-mind.

Master KChief · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2012, 05:05:15 PM »

FBTN heroes should win every time.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #17 on:** March 10, 2012, 05:24:41 PM »

Are you saying I said that in the quoted statement or that you believe that?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #18 on:** March 10, 2012, 10:47:54 PM »

I think he's just being sarcastic.

Bryon · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2012, 12:14:40 AM »

This is a very subjective poll, obviously. I think certain heroes are better because they take fewer support cards to give great benefit toward victory in the game. For me, that is about rescues against decks I see often. For others, it is about rescues against defenses that THEY see often. For others, it is not so much the rescue int he here and now, but the massive set-up or card advantage they enable. Even if a deck has to be fairly well built around the hero to make it great, if the payoff is high enough, then the hero is good.

I think heroes like TSA are the best, since they don't require much to win a battle. You can't drop Ishmaiah alone into battle and expect the same result. But then again, if you build your deck around making Ishmaiah shine, boy does he! If you only need 2-3 support cards to make a hero shine, that is better than 4-6. To me. But maybe you like your games faster and don't see Rain Becomes Dust as often as I do.

Master KChief · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2012, 01:05:01 AM »

I guess you don't see DoN/Captured Ark/Foreign Sword much either.

Bryon · « **Reply #21 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:51:20 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on March 11, 2012, 01:05:01 AM

I guess you don't see DoN/Captured Ark/Foreign Sword much either.

DoN all the time. But they have to wait to draw it... the slow way. By the time they draw DoN, they are already behind. If 50% of the cards in your deck are mainly there to draw cards, then that is 50% of the cards that are wasted while RBD is active.

Foreign Sword a little. Captured Ark rarely.

Master KChief · « **Reply #22 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:58:23 PM »

You're assuming you have RBD active before they utilize any part of their draw engine. Seeing as how the number of draw cards far outnumber 1 single hard counter in your deck, any normal speed deck will have virtually no trouble with finding 1 of 3 commonly used solid answers to RBD.

Bryon · « **Reply #23 on:** March 11, 2012, 05:05:46 PM »

I'm not saying that Ishmaiah is always useless. He isn't even usually useless. Not even half the time. However, he is useless just enough times to be beat by Ahimelek, in my opinion. I see Ahimelek win battles very often around here, and without needing 3+ other cards to make him work.

If you always include the 3 counters to RBD, then yeah, you won't have much trouble with RBD.

We use RBD in teams, and you'd be surprised how effective it is. The more copies that exist in the game, the less effective your counters will be, and the more chance that at least one RBD will be active before you start your massive drawing. RBD is very useful in multiplayer, too, where it is not uncommon to see decks where every third card has a draw ability.

Master KChief · « **Reply #24 on:** March 11, 2012, 05:09:25 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 11, 2012, 05:05:46 PM

I see Ahimelek win battles very often around here, and without needing 3+ other cards to make him work.

But you need at least 1 other card (2 if you want better chances of it working) just to make him work. Ishmaiah only needs 1 of 3, and thats only if a hard counter is present.

Quote from: Bryon on March 11, 2012, 05:05:46 PM

We use RBD in teams, and you'd be surprised how effective it is. Its very useful in multiplayer, too, where it is not uncommon to see decks where every other card has a draw ability.

Definately, of course. I'm not going to pass up the chance to make at least 2 other meta players very disgruntled at no cost to me except for an art slot. Those numbers are just too good to pass up.

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Which is the better Redemption hero?

Author Topic: Round 2 - Red - Ahimelek or Ishamiah (Read 4329 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy