Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Which is the better Redemption hero?

Philip  (Di)
Abigail  (RA2)

I don't even know what abigail does. Philip is better though.

Yeah, she's not that good.

Abby. Disciples/Gardensciples suck this year.

lol?

Philip bands to Bart who is big and gives protection from capture and conversion.
Abigail bands to King David who is big and gives pre-block ignore to a lot of common ECs.
But Philip searches for his banding buddy while Abigail has to wait, so advantage Philip.

Philip is immune to Greek ECs, which is rarely even a factor.
Abigail protects characters in her territory and LSs from evil cards stopping Uzzah & Burial.
Advantage Abigail.

Philip is out of SAs at this point.
Abigail can draw up to 3 cards every attack.
Advantage Abigail.

Philip adds 1 more disciple to the invincibleness of Thad.
Abigail makes it so that King Lemuel can recur all your GEs.
Advantage Abigail.

Abby is better than philip because she is OT. In this meta OT means no matter the theme someone is going to work you into a sam deck. Sam is S tier. Thus Abby is better.

You can't have 2 S tiers. You already said Sams was S tier.

And really, there are far more hard counters to TGT than ever before now.

 King Turtle eats Gardensciples alive, how can it be S tier?

Quote from: Master KChief on March 06, 2012, 11:08:19 AM

You can't have 2 S tiers. You already said Sams was S tier.

And really, there are far more hard counters to TGT than ever before now.

Yes you can. It's been well established for a while that both Gardensciples and Sam are considered S tier.

Not possible. Only one deck can be a clear Tier 0, if there even is one...as in, beats out absolutely everything else. Ask yourself, who wins in Sams vs Gardensciples?

I also dont consider a season that hasn't even started high-calibur tournaments yet as an indication of 'well-established'.

Expansive defense? What expansive defense? You're combining two themes, you literally have no room for anything but the standard meta defense.

Why would Gardensciples utilize Gabriel? And Birth Foretold, a 1:1 only playable on Gabriel? Thats terrible. And its not like any other deck could not benefit from a splashed Gabe and Birth Foretold, even if it was not for the bad playability chances.

I'm also curious as to how Gardensciples is less susceptable to the anti-meta cards, when some of the hardest counters in recent years have been to specifically shut down ignore.

And no, you cannot have two S tier decks, thats simply not the definition of S tier. If you have two or more top (anything), then it would be A tier.

Expansive defense? What expansive defense? You're combining two themes, you literally have no room for anything but the standard meta defense.

You can easily make room, especially since TGT is small to begin with, and you don't need that many cards from Disciples. There's enough overlap that you can build a really effective Gardensciples at around 42 cards, including doms, offense, and neutrals.

Why would Gardensciples utilize Gabriel? And Birth Foretold, a 1:1 only playable on Gabriel? Thats terrible. And its not like any other deck could not benefit from a splashed Gabe and Birth Foretold, even if it was not for the bad playability chances.

Banding in Gabriel with 'He is Risen' helps make an RA a success, not to mention Gabe's ability is pretty strong. Gardensciples is fast enough that you can afford a 1:1 ratio like that as long as it's used sparingly.

I'm also curious as to how Gardensciples is less susceptable to the anti-meta cards, when some of the hardest counters in recent years have been to specifically shut down ignore.

And how many of those get used? The most common anti-meta cards are HHI, Nazareth, HSR, RBD, and then the Broken Cisterns/Plagued with Diseases. Gardensciples only has a handful of banding, doesn't search that much, has Passover Hymn to help with RBD, and only uses three brigades.

And no, you cannot have two S tier decks, thats simply not the definition of S tier. If you have two or more top (anything), then it would be A tier.

Well, we do. Even if you said only Sam could be S tier, Sam has at least three variations that are relatively commonly used, so even Sam can't be S tier in that case. If we choose to put Sam and Gardensciples in the top tier and call it S tier, we can do it.

There are a few reasons but its mostly because of their susceptibility to King Omri.

Omri himself can be taken out by John. I admit that Gardensciples can have problems with a Gates deck if it gets set up, but so does Sam, and I'd argue that with a lot of heroes that are less than */7, Sam is more suspectable to a GoS deck. The Garden Girls get hit pretty hard, but the Disciples stay strong, and getting inish to play MLaMG or AoCp is always nice.

Faster than drawing out your entire deck in less than 5 turns 60% of the time? I never knew Gardensciples to be that fast, only consistent with sacky rescues and some solid drawing.

I don't think that Gardensciples is faster than Sam, but it's fast enough to justify the addition of two cards to help get SoG out early.

And how many of those get used? The most common anti-meta cards are HHI, Nazareth, HSR, RBD, and then the Broken Cisterns/Plagued with Diseases. Gardensciples only has a handful of banding, doesn't search that much, has Passover Hymn to help with RBD, and only uses three brigades.

Turtles use them all.[/quote]

Yes, and every single one of those cards hits Sam decks harder than Gardensciples decks.

Sounds more like you do.

I've heard more than one other person declare more than one deck being in S tier. Just because nobody immediately comes to back up my opinion doesn't mean I'm the only one. If I'm making up my own definition for S tier, why do you care?

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on March 06, 2012, 12:14:37 PM

Quote

Yes, and every single one of those cards hits Sam decks harder than Gardensciples decks.

That would be a matter of opinion, they hurt them both pretty much equally enough. I mean, that pretty much is the definition of anti-meta. If it exists, then anti-meta players will use it against the top decks. I also seem to remember Golgotha pooping all over TGT last year, but that was conveniently left out...

They do not hit them equally at all.  Household idols devastates Sam's banding chains, whereas Gardensciples only has a couple of banding chains, that it can go without (though it is still hurt without them).  Nazareth and HSR hit Sam much harder since it can't use the angels to search out Sam and can't use Sam's drawing, while it only hurts Gardensciples a little as it stops the searching out of the Tomb by Salome and the Philip's search for Bart (and birth foretold if you want to use it), but  none of that is really necessary for a Gardensciples deck to work (note: I'm leaving out cards like Am Slave and Harvest Time which are likely to be in both decks, since obviously these are hit the same for both decks).  Rain Becomes Dust does hit both relatively equally (though it doesn't hit Susanna), but Gardensciples can use Passover Hymn from territory or, if necessary, My Lord and My God to hit RBD.  Golgatha is the only anti-meta card that really hits Garden Tomb harder, however it doesn't go with a lot of defenses because of the limitation of only making N.T. evil characters Cannot be Ignored, and many of the best defenses are O.T.