Author Topic: Gold Championship: King of Tyrus vs. Pharaoh's Cupbearer (Read 3553 times)

Professoralstad · « **on:** April 13, 2012, 11:31:26 AM »

Who is the better EC?

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:38:47 PM »

KoT is very much overrated. Every offense has ways of killing him (besides doms) and he is little more than a nuisance against most decks. He doesn't actually accomplish anything, and in a meta deck (i.e. no defense) there is no point in running him.

Cupbearer, on the other hand, recurs your Genesis characters (both sides), works equally well as a hero or EC so conversion doesn't stop him, generates a soul (hugely important with the new rules), and is CBN.

I honestly do not understand the love for KoT. He's just not as good.

Drrek · « **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:08:53 PM »

KoT is the most overrated card in the entire game in my opinion. In a standalone defense (which is pretty much the only place I've seen him used) he's almost an entire waste of a card slot. The meta defense has about 1 or 2 blocks a game when someone will have to use an enhancement (or be able to use an enhancement) to get through, so its not like he's really making the other deck waste something to get rid of him, because there's not much anyone's going to be having to use those enhancements to get through. And maybe you could still try to make the case that the wasting of an enhancement is important, but the top-tier offenses have some form of CBN banding in them, so its not like he's ever going to win a battle on his own.

Cupbearer, on the other hand, is a CBN soul-gen, evil character recurrer, which, while not as good as something like Am slave (but then really, what is), is SIGNIFICANTLY more useful that KoT.

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:22:54 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 13, 2012, 10:08:53 PM

Cupbearer, on the other hand, is a CBN soul-gen, evil character recurrer, which, while not as good as something like Am slave (but then really, what is), is SIGNIFICANTLY more useful that KoT.

Don't forget, he's not just an EC-recurrer. He can recur ANY Genesis character, and then add a Genesis character to battle. That means that he works amazing on defense to Soul Gen, then bring back whoever you need more (an Egyptian or hero), and add a Genesis EC to battle.

AND

That means he works amazing on offense to Soul Gen, then bring back whoever you need (even that hero they killed that will win this battle pre-block, say), and add a hero to battle. No Souls on their side? No problem! Let's just send him over, bring Jacob out of discard, add him to battle, play Reuben's Torn Clothes, and take the Soul. Thank you!

And it's all CBN. Why are we even having a discussion on this?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:59:06 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 13, 2012, 10:22:54 PM

Quote from: Drrek on April 13, 2012, 10:08:53 PM
Cupbearer, on the other hand, is a CBN soul-gen, evil character recurrer, which, while not as good as something like Am slave (but then really, what is), is SIGNIFICANTLY more useful that KoT.

Don't forget, he's not just an EC-recurrer. He can recur ANY Genesis character, and then add a Genesis character to battle. That means that he works amazing on defense to Soul Gen, then bring back whoever you need more (an Egyptian or hero), and add a Genesis EC to battle.

AND

That means he works amazing on offense to Soul Gen, then bring back whoever you need (even that hero they killed that will win this battle pre-block, say), and add a hero to battle. No Souls on their side? No problem! Let's just send him over, bring Jacob out of discard, add him to battle, play Reuben's Torn Clothes, and take the Soul. Thank you!

And it's all CBN. Why are we even having a discussion on this?

Because KoT has Evil Spirit and Wonder's Forgotten and is in a much better theme (which is no theme/Magicians).

Arrthoa · « **Reply #5 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:52:43 PM »

You people need to remember that most of those who vote for KoT are people who use little to no defense such as the stand-alone defense

Drrek · « **Reply #6 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:05:28 PM »

Quote from: Arrthoa on April 16, 2012, 10:52:43 PM

You people need to remember that most of those who vote for KoT are people who use little to no defense such as the stand-alone defense

I understand that, and that's why I argue he's useless even there. Many of the top tier offenses use CBN banding, and all have CBN enhancements to take care of KoT, and, if one is using a standalone defense, those enhancements aren't going to be needed to be used on anything other than KoT, so he's not even making them waste anything on him.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:16:29 PM »

The stereotypical 6 card defense is terrible. You want to see KoT be a monster, you better use him in a real defense that can take out the CBN banding threats. KoT can take it from there.

Egyptians are really overrated though. They have nice speed, but pretty bad blocks for the amount of cards you'll need to use. The soul gen is nice though.

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:20:19 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 16, 2012, 11:16:29 PM

Egyptians are really overrated though. They have nice speed, but pretty bad blocks for the amount of cards you'll need to use. The soul gen is nice though.

He's not just nice for Egyptians though. He can recur a hero too, and add one to battle if he is a hero. Convert that puppy, go into battle, bring back any Genesis hero, then enter battle with Jacob/Zeb/Joseph and play ridiculousness to just rescue that there soul you CBN put in their territory. Profit.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:23:03 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2012, 11:20:19 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 16, 2012, 11:16:29 PM
Egyptians are really overrated though. They have nice speed, but pretty bad blocks for the amount of cards you'll need to use. The soul gen is nice though.

He's not just nice for Egyptians though. He can recur a hero too, and add one to battle if he is a hero. Convert that puppy, go into battle, bring back any Genesis hero, then enter battle with Jacob/Zeb/Joseph and play ridiculousness to just rescue that there soul you CBN put in their territory. Profit.

The problem is he's tied to a specific theme, and is useless aside from soul generation without a Genesis offense, Genyptians defense, or both. King of Tyrus, especially the gold version, has no such restraints placed on him, which throws a point KoT's way.

Master KChief · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:28:17 PM »

I agree on the points of KoT easily being steamrolled in todays meta and half the time being a wasted deck slot. Cupbearer has a great ability, but won't see much if any play outside of a specific theme. Based on these restrictions, KoT is the better EC in this matchup.

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:30:57 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on April 16, 2012, 11:28:17 PM

I agree on the points of KoT easily being steamrolled in todays meta and half the time being a wasted deck slot. Cupbearer has a great ability, but won't see much if any play outside of a specific theme. Based on these restrictions, KoT is the better EC in this matchup.

If an EC works really well, but only in one theme, and they should get beat out by an EC who gets steamrolled but can go in any deck, then we shouldn't vote for Manny, ASA, and others who are winning or have won matches. The better EC is certainly Cupbearer. I'd rather have him in a deck where he works than KoT in any deck where he will fail miserably.

lp670sv · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:32:07 PM »

Lol at everyone acting like KOT is buckler.

Drrek · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:39:23 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 16, 2012, 11:23:03 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2012, 11:20:19 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 16, 2012, 11:16:29 PM
Egyptians are really overrated though. They have nice speed, but pretty bad blocks for the amount of cards you'll need to use. The soul gen is nice though.

He's not just nice for Egyptians though. He can recur a hero too, and add one to battle if he is a hero. Convert that puppy, go into battle, bring back any Genesis hero, then enter battle with Jacob/Zeb/Joseph and play ridiculousness to just rescue that there soul you CBN put in their territory. Profit.

The problem is he's tied to a specific theme, and is useless aside from soul generation without a Genesis offense, Genyptians defense, or both. King of Tyrus, especially the gold version, has no such restraints placed on him, which throws a point KoT's way.

He also works pretty well with Canaanites. I do agree that he's kind of limited in the themes he works with, but even so, I'd take a great ability that works in only a couple of decks over an ability that is generally pretty worthless that's played in a lot more decks. I agree that versatility of a card is important (especially with ECs since no one uses real defense and thus splashyness is important), but I don't think KoT is good enough to justify putting him over the fantastic ability of Cupbearer.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:56:37 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2012, 11:30:57 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on April 16, 2012, 11:28:17 PM
I agree on the points of KoT easily being steamrolled in todays meta and half the time being a wasted deck slot. Cupbearer has a great ability, but won't see much if any play outside of a specific theme. Based on these restrictions, KoT is the better EC in this matchup.

If an EC works really well, but only in one theme, and they should get beat out by an EC who gets steamrolled but can go in any deck, then we shouldn't vote for Manny, ASA, and others who are winning or have won matches. The better EC is certainly Cupbearer. I'd rather have him in a deck where he works than KoT in any deck where he will fail miserably.

I didn't vote for Manny or ASA...

Also, if you say KoT fails miserably, you've never seen him used to his fullest potential. He's phenomenal in a solid defense. Just having him sitting in the territory forces your opponents into uncomfortable decisions.

Quote from: lp670sv on April 16, 2012, 11:32:07 PM

Lol at everyone acting like KOT is buckler.

False. Que is buckler. But so much greater.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #15 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:57:14 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2012, 11:30:57 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on April 16, 2012, 11:28:17 PM
I agree on the points of KoT easily being steamrolled in todays meta and half the time being a wasted deck slot. Cupbearer has a great ability, but won't see much if any play outside of a specific theme. Based on these restrictions, KoT is the better EC in this matchup.

If an EC works really well, but only in one theme, and they should get beat out by an EC who gets steamrolled but can go in any deck, then we shouldn't vote for Manny, ASA, and others who are winning or have won matches. The better EC is certainly Cupbearer. I'd rather have him in a deck where he works than KoT in any deck where he will fail miserably.

I really don't think King of Tyrus gets "steamrolled" any harder than most other evil characters do. Cupbearer himself is taken out by all the same things if you use his ability, and can't exchange for any evil characters that aren't just as vulnerable as King of Tyrus is. The fact of the matter is, in the opening turns King of Tyrus is still a heavy hitter, and he can stall someone for two or three turns, especially when you're not playing against someone with a lot of CBN enhancements.

browarod · « **Reply #16 on:** April 17, 2012, 12:42:19 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 16, 2012, 11:57:14 PM

especially when you're not playing against someone with a lot of CBN enhancements.

So....new people and RLKs? lol

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #17 on:** April 17, 2012, 12:45:04 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 17, 2012, 12:42:19 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 16, 2012, 11:57:14 PM
especially when you're not playing against someone with a lot of CBN enhancements.
So....new people and RLKs? lol

Disciples only has one aside from Thomas. Genesis only has Ben and Joseph (who becomes vulnerable to CM with KoT in battle). Straight Judges has two, and straight red has one. The only strategy that has more than one or two is Sam decks.

Red Wing · « **Reply #18 on:** April 17, 2012, 12:50:43 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 12:45:04 PM

Disciples only has one aside from Thomas. Genesis only has Ben and Joseph (who becomes vulnerable to CM with KoT in battle). Straight Judges has two, and straight red has one. The only strategy that has more than one or two is Sam decks.

Disciples also have Sons of Thunder. Judges have three (Ehud's Dagger, Deb's directive, and Edict).

Wings of Music · « **Reply #19 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:24:44 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on April 17, 2012, 12:50:43 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 12:45:04 PM
Disciples only has one aside from Thomas. Genesis only has Ben and Joseph (who becomes vulnerable to CM with KoT in battle). Straight Judges has two, and straight red has one. The only strategy that has more than one or two is Sam decks.
Disciples also have Sons of Thunder. Judges have three (Ehud's Dagger, Deb's directive, and Edict).

Have you seen anyone use Sons of Thunder? Also Ehud's Dagger isn't really useful against KoT.

Still KoT is useful for any deck as a splash, he goes as well with an egyptians defense as cup-bearer does, and can go in any other defense to be just as valuable. KoT all the way. Also the only reason KoT gets steamrolled in most defenses is because the opponent saves their CBN battle winners for him. I save CBN stuff for KoT because he's a threat, a lot of people do the same. I don't save anything in my hand to deal with cupbearer. So Kot > Cupbearer.

Drrek · « **Reply #20 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:32:25 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 12:45:04 PM

Quote from: browarod on April 17, 2012, 12:42:19 PM
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 16, 2012, 11:57:14 PM
especially when you're not playing against someone with a lot of CBN enhancements.
So....new people and RLKs? lol

Disciples only has one aside from Thomas. Genesis only has Ben and Joseph (who becomes vulnerable to CM with KoT in battle). Straight Judges has two, and straight red has one. The only strategy that has more than one or two is Sam decks.

But disciples have a CBN search and band in Phil/Bart, giant numbers in Passover Hymn, thomas' CBN everything, James + John preventing KoT and beating him by numbers, and if you include it (though I don't) faith in our high priest. Also Disciples is most commonly paired with TGT, which can either ignore KoT or use its big CBN band to kill him.

Straight Judges has Deb's Directive, Ambush the City, Sam's Edict, Ehud's Dagger, Sword Against Sword and a Negated Samson's sacrifice for huge numbers.

Sam decks should really have no problem with KoT at all, not even going to go into great detail there.

Genesis has Joe, Ben, Numerous as the Stars to get out either of those or Judah for numbers, and Answer to Prayer for the same thing

Quote from: Wings of Music on April 17, 2012, 01:24:44 PM

Have you seen anyone use Sons of Thunder? Also Ehud's Dagger isn't really useful against KoT.

Ehud's Dagger discards KoT, CBN

Wings of Music · « **Reply #21 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:42:56 PM »

Oh duh, because KoT stands for King of Tyrus...

Master Q · « **Reply #22 on:** April 17, 2012, 02:01:21 PM »

Red has Bravery and Counsel for enhancements, and a banding chain with either of the Centurions will do the job. They can also beat him btn easily. Di will always steamroll KoT if they have Phil+Bart, Thomas+Faith as a Mustard Seed/MLaMG, James+John/Sons of Thunder, Sent 2 by 2, or anyone with AoCP.

KoT is basically good for shutting off banding or protection for CM or UW, or early blocks; that's it. This is why he's one of the best ECs of all time!

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #23 on:** April 17, 2012, 02:47:50 PM »

Conditional CBNs put your opponent in a tight spot and you can respond accordingly. KoT doesn't need to block in order to do anything. His presence changes the game.
For example, you force your opponent to attack with a lone hero instead of a CBN band so they can drop Samuel's Edict. They're far more vulnerable when they're alone.
Or you force them to attack with James, Son of Zebedee and John. They just gave you an insane amount of initiative. Have fun.

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Who is the better EC?

Author Topic: Gold Championship: King of Tyrus vs. Pharaoh's Cupbearer (Read 3553 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

browarod

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk