Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Unofficial Tournaments => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption March Madness => Topic started by: Professoralstad on April 02, 2012, 01:36:19 PM
-
Which is the better EC?
Egyptian Magicians
Damsel with Spirit of Divination [Thesaurus]
-
Damsel totally wins this. Egyptian Magicians is good, but Damsel's drawing ability is awesome.
-
EM for life.
-
Damsel is orange. I am Minnesotan. Egyptian Magicians is at least playable.
-
I can't believe EM is winning this. Damsel is much, much better. Can EM Discard the top 8 cards of your opponent's deck, sending Lost Souls to play? Didn't think so.
-
Yes, but EM can recur Invoking terror and CBI band to an Egyptian in addition to a d1.
Still, it's really not as good as Damsel is it?
-
Damsel is one of those humans who laughs at Three Nails when playing orange defense. She gets my vote.
-
EM is way better.
-
SoT to EM is one of the best evil initiative plays in the game. Throw a Gomer to the beginning and you have access to more CBN battlewinners than Manny.
-
I'm genuinely shocked that EM is beating Damsel, let alone by this many votes. I think Damsel has a few things going for her that Egyptian Magicians simply doesn't. First, she's the second best drawing evil character in the game (Vittles is the best, with Sabbath Breaker in third), since pretty much everything but Genesis is bound to have at least two different brigades in hand at some point or another. Obviously, she (unlike Sabbath Breaker) can also easily be used multiple times. Additionally, her being able to look at an opponent's hand is absolutely huge because of the timing. Most people at that point are done drawing; aside from the handful of enhancements like Reach of Desperation that draw mid-battle and the handful of territory class enhancements that draw after battle (neither one of which is particularly popular right now), there aren't really any ways to draw after all the heroes are in battle. This means that you're getting a very, very good look at what you can expect with your next rescue attempt, an advantage that cannot be overstated. True, Egyptian Magicians can pull Invoking Terror from the bottom, but how useful is that really, when you consider all the banding and recursion that occurs? The Invoking Terror play doesn't even really work in a traditional Genyptians deck, since Genesis isn't fast enough to justify a 1:1 character/enhancement ratio, so you'd have to add more Magicians to justify it. This isn't the end of the world of course, but at that point, you're playing as much of a Magicians defense as you are Genyptians, and that's a lot to add for one strategy.
-
Damsel didn't see this one coming. Halle Berry why you do dis to my bracket?
-
Damsel didn't see this one coming. Halle Berry why you do dis to my bracket?
We've pulled within two votes, and it was a five vote difference when I started my speech, so there's still hope to pull ahead.
-
She also works well as a hero for me since shes a N.T. female. If you don't want to add one of those to your offense, its nice to have one available to convert.
-
I can't believe EM is winning this. Damsel is much, much better. Can EM Discard the top 8 cards of your opponent's deck, sending Lost Souls to play? Didn't think so.
This combo is epic, for sure, but it still requires a minimum of 5 cards to be guaranteed to work, and you have to pull it off before your opponent decks or wins, and it can be countered with numerous anti-meta arts.
She also works well as a hero for me since shes a N.T. female. If you don't want to add one of those to your offense, its nice to have one available to convert.
And on that note, she can also be saved by Herod's Temple as an EC or a hero.
-
This combo is epic, for sure, but it still requires a minimum of 5 cards to be guaranteed to work, and you have to pull it off before your opponent decks or wins, and it can be countered with numerous anti-meta arts.
I'm not sure it's fair to say five cards, because only two of the five have to be specific: RBD and Damsel. In a Magicians deck, Damsel should already be in there, and at this point, I think every deck should use RBD; that leaves three cards that have specific purposes, but still have some options. I actually just built a Disciples deck that used the green Simon and Faithful Servant to use Provisions to get off the Damsel combo, which I was able to do in one of the two games I've played it with so far (I would have gotten it off the second game, but incidentally, I won before I could [it was my final ROOT game of the month with Pol]). Some creativity is all that's needed to make this sort of thing work.
-
Egyptian Magicians is beating Damsel because too many people picked Damsel in the brackets and we're just screwing everybody over.
Well, that and the fact that Egyptian Magicians has access to tons of great battle winners, tons of banding possibilities, and gets initiative more often than not. Damsel won't get a block. She might survive the battle because of Arts/Dominants, but she won't be the one doing it.
-
Egyptian Magicians is beating Damsel because too many people picked Damsel in the brackets and we're just screwing everybody over.
Well, that and the fact that Egyptian Magicians has access to tons of great battle winners, tons of banding possibilities, and gets initiative more often than not. Damsel won't get a block. She might survive the battle because of Arts/Dominants, but she won't be the one doing it.
Aren't you the one contemplating taking CM out of your deck because banding is so prevalent? You can't have your cake and eat it too (what kind of idiom is that?)
-
A lame one. But hey Damsel is only down by one at this point she can still do this.
-
Egyptian Magicians is beating Damsel because too many people picked Damsel in the brackets and we're just screwing everybody over.
Well, that and the fact that Egyptian Magicians has access to tons of great battle winners, tons of banding possibilities, and gets initiative more often than not. Damsel won't get a block. She might survive the battle because of Arts/Dominants, but she won't be the one doing it.
Aren't you the one contemplating taking CM out of your deck because banding is so prevalent? You can't have your cake and eat it too (what kind of idiom is that?)
A. that was multiplayer.
B. That's a good point.
C. You can totally eat your own cake. But it's a lie.
-
Ring Wraith doesn't even like cake. He said John McCrea sounded bored when singing.
-
Ring Wraith doesn't even like cake. He said John McCrea sounded bored when singing.
And you think Bob Dylan is a good singer. Doesn't mean you're from Swaziland.
-
And Damsel takes the lead!
-
'Bout time.
-
EM is way better.
This.
-
Name the last time Damsel has blocked anything by her own power.
-
Name the last time Damsel has blocked anything by her own power.
Not everything is about getting a successful block. Damsel has the potential for huge drawing and the chance to see your opponent's hand so you know what to expect on your next rescue attempt. Combined with the possibility of getting blocks out of Writ or CM, I'd take that over a band and a chance to bring Invoking Terror up any day.
-
Name the last time Damsel has blocked anything by her own power.
Not everything is about getting a successful block. Damsel has the potential for huge drawing and the chance to see your opponent's hand so you know what to expect on your next rescue attempt. Combined with the possibility of getting blocks out of Writ or CM, I'd take that over a band and a chance to bring Invoking Terror up any day.
Laver is a boss.
-
True enough, but if you're using Laver, you're usually using a full-fledged defense, which means you've already lost. ;)
That was a joke, nobody hurt me.
-
Name the last time Damsel has blocked anything by her own power.
Not everything is about getting a successful block. Damsel has the potential for huge drawing and the chance to see your opponent's hand so you know what to expect on your next rescue attempt. Combined with the possibility of getting blocks out of Writ or CM, I'd take that over a band and a chance to bring Invoking Terror up any day.
Invoking Terror is the fifth best battle winner Egyptian Magicians can play.
True enough, but if you're using Laver, you're usually using a full-fledged defense, which means you've already lost. ;)
That was a joke, nobody hurt me.
Haters gonna hate.
-
Invoking Terror is the fifth best battle winner Egyptian Magicians can play.
True, but I'm sure that many people voted for EM on the use of Invoking Terror then pulling it with EM for the d1 or just use in battle.
-
Name the Last time that AUTO won a soul by himself.
-
Damsel is so good and it's still taking years for people to realize it. Multi, look at hand, draw, and Charms make her a beast.
-
SoT to EM is one of the best evil initiative plays in the game. Throw a Gomer to the beginning and you have access to more CBN battlewinners than Manny.
SoT to EM was a pretty cool combo I saw at the T2 only. EM wins.
-
Damsel is so good and it's still taking years for people to realize it. Multi, look at hand, draw, and Charms make her a beast.
Most people realize how good she is, but apparently it'll take a little bit longer before people realize how good Egyptian Magicians is.
-
EM is nowhere on the level of Damsel. EM is for combo players, and as such is prone to dead draws. Damsel can block without Charms support and still get a better plus than EM or even Breaker. Coupled with a beefy body to kill weenie rescues and knowledge of knowing what you're attacking into next turn (which makes her more aggro than some might believe), Damsel is the clear winner here.
-
Agreed. IMO look at have is one of the best abilities in the game, and we all know that drawing is also one of the most powerful abilities. Damsel actually draws better than Sabbath breaker for me since I usually get to use her twice. Also with the popularity of Sam there should be plenty of colors in the opponent's hand. Damsel is great for combos, particularly ones that bring out souls.
Want to dicard 8 cards from the opponent's deck? CTB damsel get rid of those cards.
Want to get souls but need SoG too? CTB damsel with gifts up to generate souls and get you your SoG.
Need a female hero that can use hidden treasures? Use grail on Damsel and you're set!
There's plenty more that you can do with Damsel, but all you can really do with EM is recur invoking terror.
-
OK, why is changing your vote allowed again?
-
OK, why is changing your vote allowed again?
There's no point in discussion or debate if there isn't. It allows people to be persuaded one way or the other, and have that persuasion matter.
-
I always thought the time to be persuaded was BEFORE a vote. If I wanted to be persuaded about a character's merits, I'd listen and then vote. Observe that practically all of the most recent posts have been pro-Damsel and agreed with by several individuals. And yet the most recent voting demonstrates that someone removed their Damsel vote and switched to EM instead. How do you explain that?
-
Someone may have voted before anyone posted and switched after reading all the arguments - including those that are pro EM.
-
I like the system as it is. Votes should be able to be changed as people become convinced of other viewpoints.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F400x%2F17919871.jpg&hash=50b86532ca216a1a6baf8a6cbf37f1ff110f37a4)
-
I like the system as it is. Votes should be able to be changed as people become convinced of other viewpoints.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F400x%2F17919871.jpg&hash=50b86532ca216a1a6baf8a6cbf37f1ff110f37a4)
Love it. That made me happy. (well almost as happy as listening to Rush this morning has made me)
But seriously, what arguments are there for Egyptian magicians? Yes you can get back invoking terror for a d1 or band, but how is that better than discarding 8 cards from opponents deck, or drawing a bunch from yours?
-
I like the system as it is. Votes should be able to be changed as people become convinced of other viewpoints.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F400x%2F17919871.jpg&hash=50b86532ca216a1a6baf8a6cbf37f1ff110f37a4)
How many Americans now wish presidential votes could work like this?
-
I like the system as it is. Votes should be able to be changed as people become convinced of other viewpoints.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F400x%2F17919871.jpg&hash=50b86532ca216a1a6baf8a6cbf37f1ff110f37a4)
How many Americans now wish presidential votes could work like this?
This would be applicable if in presidential elections, voting was done before the debates even happen (or during the debates), instead of after. If we had three days of debate and then one day of voting, I'd agree, but it's completely different.
-
But seriously, what arguments are there for Egyptian magicians? Yes you can get back invoking terror for a d1 or band, but how is that better than discarding 8 cards from opponents deck, or drawing a bunch from yours?
Again, Invoking Terror is (at best) the fifth best battle winner EM can play. Nobody cares about Invoking Terror. Nobody cares about his D1. It's his brigades and play ability that makes him so awesome. Combine him with SoT for a play first. Band to an Egyptian (or a Manasseh) with horses and play first Wonders Forgotten, Forgotten History, Death of Unrighteous (only if you're desperate though, he's nice to have), or Failed Objective (again, if you're desperate). There are also a lot of other nice battle winners like Invoking Terror and Evil Spirit. Stick a Gomer and SoT on him and you can play Haman's Plot, Gib's Trick, Worshipping Demons, and Suicidal Swine Stampede (if you're desperate). Plus, he gets protection from Pharoah's Throne Room, which stops a lot more than CP. He just has so many more options than Damsel.
Also, T2>T1, and EM is clearly the better choice in T2. :)
-
Damsel is so good and it's still taking years for people to realize it. Multi, look at hand, draw, and Charms make her a beast.
The only thing in that list that EM doesn't also do is look at hand, and he has the potential to band (as well as play an enhancement) instead. Not to mention evil gold has better battle winners than orange.
-
Damsel is so good and it's still taking years for people to realize it. Multi, look at hand, draw, and Charms make her a beast.
The only thing in that list that EM doesn't also do is look at hand, and he has the potential to band (as well as play an enhancement) instead. Not to mention evil gold has better battle winners than orange.
Damsel can draw more and can be used in combo with RBD and CTB, which is really fun.
-
Damsel is so good and it's still taking years for people to realize it. Multi, look at hand, draw, and Charms make her a beast.
The only thing in that list that EM doesn't also do is look at hand, and he has the potential to band (as well as play an enhancement) instead. Not to mention evil gold has better battle winners than orange.
Damsel does what needs to be done so much better. Looking at hand and drawing on defense is enough to make your opponent go to scoop phase on your next turn. Decent numbers will force weenie heroes to minus a card to even beat her in battle, and a Charms means she can possibly pull double duty as a chump blocker. All of this is accomplished by 2 cards at most which equals consistency, whereas EM requires dedication to large combo plays to even work properly. In the T2 meta he may have a chance, but in T1 EM is completely dwarfed by more consistent options.
-
EM has been perfectly consistent in my T1 deck. I've won games due to his IT recur/play block stalling my opponent long enough for me to get to 5. I can't say I've ever even wanted to block with Damsel by herself, the only times I've used her was banding with Manny to get some extra cards. I don't see how setting up a CtB/RBD/discard bunches of cards from the opponent's deck scheme is any LESS of a "large combo play" than EM with his plethora of battle winners, and EM can start working as soon as you draw just him (whereas Damsel needs all the other cards to be prepped beforehand).
-
EM has been perfectly consistent in my T1 deck. I've won games due to his IT recur/play block stalling my opponent long enough for me to get to 5. I can't say I've ever even wanted to block with Damsel by herself, the only times I've used her was banding with Manny to get some extra cards. I don't see how setting up a CtB/RBD/discard bunches of cards from the opponent's deck scheme is any LESS of a "large combo play" than EM with his plethora of battle winners, and EM can start working as soon as you draw just him (whereas Damsel needs all the other cards to be prepped beforehand).
These are my thoughts for the most part, EM is much better at just blocking because he has a large number of battle winners he can use, and his ability is essentially a play first if you hit one of them off the deck, or if he hits another evil character he can add that too. Plus the banding is very useful and he has relatively good initiative for playing his enhancements. He also gets Magic charms just like Damsel, so he gets that chump block as well. I'd say that while damsel is useful and some nice combos, EM is just the all around better blocker.