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Total Members Voted: 40
Voting closed: April 20, 2012, 03:06:15 PM
The only real thing Goliath has over Kot is withdraw soul manipulation.
KoT doesn't do everything better than Goliath. Goliath not only punts (which is not better than some EC he beat to get here as I argued, but it's better than a bland negate), but everything he does is CBN. He may die easily, but KoT dies easier.
read: every single non-CBN good enhancement
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 08:18:26 PMread: every single non-CBN good enhancementOh, so you use non-CBN good enhancements as the mainstay in your competitive decks?You're doing it wrong
Don't even get me started on how quickly any number of red heroes kill Goliath.
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 08:26:14 PMDon't even get me started on how quickly any number of red heroes kill Goliath.Or how quickly they kill KoT? Deb's Directive, Ehud's Dagger, Sam's Edict, Ambush the City, Sword Against Sword, Samson's Sacrifice (numbers) all work for Gold.And seriously, how often do we talk about how all the discards for Red are CBN because of David or CBN because of Uriah?
Goliath has the recursion power to keep coming back. He's also a plus everytime Outpost is used. Goliath gets my vote for that.
Quote from: Master KChief on April 18, 2012, 08:52:48 AMGoliath has the recursion power to keep coming back. He's also a plus everytime Outpost is used. Goliath gets my vote for that.Unless you get it in the first couple turns, Outpost is pretty useless. Having a block every turn doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up, and against most offenses, Outpost writes a check that it's characters can't cash.
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 18, 2012, 11:30:32 AMQuote from: Master KChief on April 18, 2012, 08:52:48 AMGoliath has the recursion power to keep coming back. He's also a plus everytime Outpost is used. Goliath gets my vote for that.Unless you get it in the first couple turns, Outpost is pretty useless. Having a block every turn doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up, and against most offenses, Outpost writes a check that it's characters can't cash.You don't have to get it the first couple of turns to use it, it's only optimal if you do. Outpost can squeeze every last drop out of your deck searching/recurring EC's, then sac itself to bring something back one last time. There is never a time Outpost is 'useless'. Having big numbers and above average abilities is enough to minus your opponent, even if you have nothing to go with them. Philistines also have some good support with Foolish Advise, Bringing Fear + whatever battle winner, or even Bringing Fear alone. As noted, Goliath is hurt by the increased usage of Ahimilek, but that shouldn't be a worry even half the time.
The problem is that Phillies require at least a five card commitment, and that's without enhancements.
The other problem is that, right now, virtually every already viable offense in the game stomps them.
They have a bit of an advantage over all other defenses but demons against TGT, and even then, it's not much of one.
Genesis has two CBN characters, so pretty much every Philly evil character is just handing them initiative.
Ahimelek is far from being the only thing red and Sam decks have against Phillies: Asahel, David, Foreign Sword, CBN banding (for Sam), etc. all stomps Phillies quite effectively.
This is one where I'm voting partially out of theme: Phillies are bad, and Goliath is only good if used in a Phillies deck.
King of Tyrus does pretty much everything Goliath does and more except of course for the withdraw, which in my opinion, just gives your opponent a chance to set up something brutal.
Not true. And if it were, how exactly is that a 'problem'?
Virtually every offense in the game stomps KoT. It's a wash.
So wait...generating EC's so you can actually block TGT isn't 'much of an advantage'? Sorry, but that's the biggest and most versatile advantage against TGT.
Genesis isn't T1 so Goliath doesn't care. Also, Asherah/Horses/JIP say hi. GG.
What exactly does CBN banding do against Goliath? Banding is the biggest thing Goliath takes poops on.
SomeKittens piloted a meta-defense with Philly splash at last years Nats quite effectively. It works.
Only against Red, nothing more. Every other matchup, he keeps coming back. Phillistines accomplish something KoT never will: mind games. Long story short, both get roflstomped easily in todays meta. Not really a fan of either. But only Goliath has the advantage of the tutor (pluses for days), recursion, and mind games, and for that he gets my vote.
Five cards is a lot since Phillies are only good at the beginning.
Again, Goliath is vulnerable to non-CBN enhancements, of which there are a few. KoT is not. Point KoT.
Not when the amount of evil characters is relatively small. You have to have one in territory for Outpost to make a difference, and that leaves him vulnerable to Grail, Angel of the Lord, Meeting the Messiah, etc. It is an advantage, but TGT still has no problems with Phillies.
Genesis is most definitely T1, especially with all the soul gen it has.
JiP is the one good card against Genesis, and that only makes a big impact with Creation of the World.
Numbers. Samuel bands to David, Goliath plays an easily negated enhancement. GG.
Phillies were the best or second best defense last year. They're not this year. Moot point.
King of Tyrus on his own uses mind games as effectively as Goliath on his own does, and again, it allows your opponent to set up the rescue as he sees fit.
5 cards are nothing when they are all tutored out easily. And as stated, Phillies do not need 5 cards committed to the theme to use them effectively.
The 'few' is completely negligible. There are a handful of ways in each T1 offense to steamroll both Kot and Goliath. Non-CBN enhancements don't matter at all except against RLK's, which you will win the game anyway.
It doesn't make as much of an impact as mono-orange, but it still makes a difference and has far better chances at blocking TGT than meta defenses ever will.
Genesis was overrated out the gate, and many realized that when it still couldn't stay paced with Sam/TGT/Disciples. The slight advantage gained from the soul gen certainly does not bump them up a tier.
So GG?
Talking about pre-withdraw. CBN banding will do zilch against Goliath. Your only hope is to lead with a weak lineup hoping for the Goliath drop, but bluffing with weak Heroes aren't exactly hard to get over with other splash EC's.
The inclusion of Red in the T1 meta does not invalidate how strong Phillistines are. The odds are in favor of a Philly player if strictly speaking against the T1 meta. The odds are even greater if Genesis is included at T1.
Lolwut? How does KoT possibly play mindgames? He blocks, he gets lucky if early game or he dies. Never comes back. Never forces you to rethink how to attempt a rescue. There are absolutely zero mind games there. Just a big beater ready to get steamrolled.
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