Author Topic: Elite Eight: 1. King of Tyrus vs. 1. Goliath (Read 6738 times)

Professoralstad · « **on:** April 17, 2012, 03:06:15 PM »

Who is the better EC?

Wings of Music · « **Reply #1 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:07:44 PM »

Kot does a lot of what Goliath does, but better. The only real thing Goliath has over Kot is withdraw soul manipulation.

Red Wing · « **Reply #2 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:13:24 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on April 17, 2012, 03:07:44 PM

The only real thing Goliath has over Kot is withdraw soul manipulation.

Goliath is recur-able.

This is a pretty tough vote, but I guess I'll go with KoT.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #3 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:15:13 PM »

True, I didn't think about that. I still think I'll go with KoT though since phillies are a relatively weak defense.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2012, 04:39:16 PM »

They both do pretty similar things, and have pretty identical uses (early game dominance and forcing your opponent to think differently when they know you have them). I happen to think that KoT does both of these things better than Goliath, so he gets my vote, despite Goliath's recursion.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2012, 07:24:18 PM »

KoT doesn't do everything better than Goliath. Goliath not only punts (which is not better than some EC he beat to get here as I argued, but it's better than a bland negate), but everything he does is CBN. He may die easily, but KoT dies easier.

lp670sv · « **Reply #6 on:** April 17, 2012, 07:28:12 PM »

You guys aren't seeing the neat combo that involves Goliath, Herod Agrippa II and capturing your opponents entire offense

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #7 on:** April 17, 2012, 08:18:26 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 17, 2012, 07:24:18 PM

KoT doesn't do everything better than Goliath. Goliath not only punts (which is not better than some EC he beat to get here as I argued, but it's better than a bland negate), but everything he does is CBN. He may die easily, but KoT dies easier.

This is simply not true. Goliath punts, but King of Tyrus also negates everything that Goliath negates, and more. Goliath's CBN status hasn't (in my experience) been much of an issue aside from the kick being CBN. KoT quite simply does not die easier, because KoT is vulnerable to less things than Goliath is (read: every single non-CBN good enhancement). Just because a negate is "bland" doesn't mean anything, especially since Philistines get steamrolled by virtually every OT offense available right now, especially red and Sam decks.

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** April 17, 2012, 08:23:41 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 08:18:26 PM

read: every single non-CBN good enhancement

Oh, so you use non-CBN good enhancements as the mainstay in your competitive decks?

You're doing it wrong

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #9 on:** April 17, 2012, 08:26:14 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 17, 2012, 08:23:41 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 08:18:26 PM
read: every single non-CBN good enhancement

Oh, so you use non-CBN good enhancements as the mainstay in your competitive decks?

You're doing it wrong

TGT and Gardensciples players do it, red and gold players, if not using Sam decks, will need negateable enhancements or risk not having enough oomph to win, Disciples uses a lot of negateable enhancements unless played on Thomas, etc. etc. All of these themes are perfectly viable and are doing it right.

Don't even get me started on how quickly any number of red heroes kill Goliath.

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** April 17, 2012, 08:30:52 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 08:26:14 PM

Don't even get me started on how quickly any number of red heroes kill Goliath.

Or how quickly they kill KoT?

Deb's Directive, Ehud's Dagger, Sam's Edict, Ambush the City, Sword Against Sword, Samson's Sacrifice (numbers) all work for Gold.

And seriously, how often do we talk about how all the discards for Red are CBN because of David or CBN because of Uriah?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #11 on:** April 17, 2012, 08:37:06 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 17, 2012, 08:30:52 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 17, 2012, 08:26:14 PM
Don't even get me started on how quickly any number of red heroes kill Goliath.

Or how quickly they kill KoT?

Deb's Directive, Ehud's Dagger, Sam's Edict, Ambush the City, Sword Against Sword, Samson's Sacrifice (numbers) all work for Gold.

And seriously, how often do we talk about how all the discards for Red are CBN because of David or CBN because of Uriah?

I'm talking about Goliath simply being left open with pretty much no defense. If he's in territory, Asahel + Bravery makes quick work of him. If he pushes someone out, bring in Ahimelek. I'm not saying that King of Tyrus isn't vulnerable to a lot of things, I'm just saying that Goliath is even more vulnerable. Both evil characters excel in the early game, but I think King of Tyrus has more lasting power.

Master KChief · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2012, 08:52:48 AM »

Goliath has the recursion power to keep coming back. He's also a plus everytime Outpost is used. Goliath gets my vote for that.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** April 18, 2012, 09:12:36 AM »

Goliath is useless with all the Ahimileks running around.

Arrthoa · « **Reply #14 on:** April 18, 2012, 09:48:52 AM »

Goliath is better than KoT and that's all I need to say.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2012, 11:30:32 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on April 18, 2012, 08:52:48 AM

Goliath has the recursion power to keep coming back. He's also a plus everytime Outpost is used. Goliath gets my vote for that.

Unless you get it in the first couple turns, Outpost is pretty useless. Having a block every turn doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up, and against most offenses, Outpost writes a check that it's characters can't cash.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2012, 04:47:39 PM »

KoT all the way. Goliath is nice, but he just doesn't have anything backing him up. Gold KoT pretty much does what Goliath does, but also has Evil Spirit and Wonders Forgotten.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2012, 05:07:45 PM »

To be at his best Goliath has to be in a Philly defense, which is not a very good defense.

To be as his best KoT just has to be put in pretty much any defense, which can often be some really good defenses.

So KoT should win based on versatility.

Master KChief · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2012, 07:59:57 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 18, 2012, 11:30:32 AM

Quote from: Master KChief on April 18, 2012, 08:52:48 AM
Goliath has the recursion power to keep coming back. He's also a plus everytime Outpost is used. Goliath gets my vote for that.

Unless you get it in the first couple turns, Outpost is pretty useless. Having a block every turn doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up, and against most offenses, Outpost writes a check that it's characters can't cash.

You don't have to get it the first couple of turns to use it, it's only optimal if you do. Outpost can squeeze every last drop out of your deck searching/recurring EC's, then sac itself to bring something back one last time. There is never a time Outpost is 'useless'. Having big numbers and above average abilities is enough to minus your opponent, even if you have nothing to go with them. Philistines also have some good support with Foolish Advise, Bringing Fear + whatever battle winner, or even Bringing Fear alone. As noted, Goliath is hurt by the increased usage of Ahimilek, but that shouldn't be a worry even half the time.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2012, 08:30:10 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on April 18, 2012, 07:59:57 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 18, 2012, 11:30:32 AM
Quote from: Master KChief on April 18, 2012, 08:52:48 AM
Goliath has the recursion power to keep coming back. He's also a plus everytime Outpost is used. Goliath gets my vote for that.

Unless you get it in the first couple turns, Outpost is pretty useless. Having a block every turn doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up, and against most offenses, Outpost writes a check that it's characters can't cash.

You don't have to get it the first couple of turns to use it, it's only optimal if you do. Outpost can squeeze every last drop out of your deck searching/recurring EC's, then sac itself to bring something back one last time. There is never a time Outpost is 'useless'. Having big numbers and above average abilities is enough to minus your opponent, even if you have nothing to go with them. Philistines also have some good support with Foolish Advise, Bringing Fear + whatever battle winner, or even Bringing Fear alone. As noted, Goliath is hurt by the increased usage of Ahimilek, but that shouldn't be a worry even half the time.

The problem is that Phillies require at least a five card commitment, and that's without enhancements. The other problem is that, right now, virtually every already viable offense in the game stomps them. Phillies no longer use anti-purple tech aside from , which makes them vulnerable to Disciples and Gardensciples. They have a bit of an advantage over all other defenses but demons against TGT, and even then, it's not much of one. Genesis has two CBN characters, so pretty much every Philly evil character is just handing them initiative. Ahimelek is far from being the only thing red and Sam decks have against Phillies: Asahel, David, Foreign Sword, CBN banding (for Sam), etc. all stomps Phillies quite effectively. This is one where I'm voting partially out of theme: Phillies are bad, and Goliath is only good if used in a Phillies deck. King of Tyrus does pretty much everything Goliath does and more, except of course for the withdraw, which in my opinion, just gives your opponent a chance to set up something brutal.

Master KChief · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2012, 10:28:48 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 18, 2012, 08:30:10 PM

The problem is that Phillies require at least a five card commitment, and that's without enhancements.

Not true. And if it were, how exactly is that a 'problem'?

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The other problem is that, right now, virtually every already viable offense in the game stomps them.

Virtually every offense in the game stomps KoT. It's a wash.

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They have a bit of an advantage over all other defenses but demons against TGT, and even then, it's not much of one.

So wait...generating EC's so you can actually block TGT isn't 'much of an advantage'? Sorry, but that's the biggest and most versatile advantage against TGT.

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Genesis has two CBN characters, so pretty much every Philly evil character is just handing them initiative.

Genesis isn't T1 so Goliath doesn't care. Also, Asherah/Horses/JIP say hi. GG.

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Ahimelek is far from being the only thing red and Sam decks have against Phillies: Asahel, David, Foreign Sword, CBN banding (for Sam), etc. all stomps Phillies quite effectively.

What exactly does CBN banding do against Goliath? Banding is the biggest thing Goliath takes poops on.

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This is one where I'm voting partially out of theme: Phillies are bad, and Goliath is only good if used in a Phillies deck.

SomeKittens piloted a meta-defense with Philly splash at last years Nats quite effectively. It works.

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King of Tyrus does pretty much everything Goliath does and more except of course for the withdraw, which in my opinion, just gives your opponent a chance to set up something brutal.

Only against Red, nothing more. Every other matchup, he keeps coming back. Phillistines accomplish something KoT never will: mind games. Long story short, both get roflstomped easily in todays meta. Not really a fan of either. But only Goliath has the advantage of the tutor (pluses for days), recursion, and mind games, and for that he gets my vote.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2012, 10:37:02 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on April 18, 2012, 10:28:48 PM

Not true. And if it were, how exactly is that a 'problem'?

Five cards is a lot since Phillies are only good at the beginning.

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Virtually every offense in the game stomps KoT. It's a wash.

Again, Goliath is vulnerable to non-CBN enhancements, of which there are a few. KoT is not. Point KoT.

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So wait...generating EC's so you can actually block TGT isn't 'much of an advantage'? Sorry, but that's the biggest and most versatile advantage against TGT.

Not when the amount of evil characters is relatively small. You have to have one in territory for Outpost to make a difference, and that leaves him vulnerable to Grail, Angel of the Lord, Meeting the Messiah, etc. It is an advantage, but TGT still has no problems with Phillies.

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Genesis isn't T1 so Goliath doesn't care. Also, Asherah/Horses/JIP say hi. GG.

Genesis is most definitely T1, especially with all the soul gen it has. JiP is the one good card against Genesis, and that only makes a big impact with Creation of the World.

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What exactly does CBN banding do against Goliath? Banding is the biggest thing Goliath takes poops on.

Numbers. Samuel bands to David, Goliath plays an easily negated enhancement. GG.

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SomeKittens piloted a meta-defense with Philly splash at last years Nats quite effectively. It works.

Phillies were the best or second best defense last year. They're not this year. Moot point.

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Only against Red, nothing more. Every other matchup, he keeps coming back. Phillistines accomplish something KoT never will: mind games. Long story short, both get roflstomped easily in todays meta. Not really a fan of either. But only Goliath has the advantage of the tutor (pluses for days), recursion, and mind games, and for that he gets my vote.

King of Tyrus on his own uses mind games as effectively as Goliath on his own does, and again, it allows your opponent to set up the rescue as he sees fit.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2012, 10:52:58 PM »

Chronic just brought up another big point. 75% (completely made up statistic) of decks use David, which makes Goliath worthless.

Master KChief · « **Reply #23 on:** April 18, 2012, 10:59:55 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 18, 2012, 10:37:02 PM

Five cards is a lot since Phillies are only good at the beginning.

5 cards are nothing when they are all tutored out easily. And as stated, Phillies do not need 5 cards committed to the theme to use them effectively.

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Again, Goliath is vulnerable to non-CBN enhancements, of which there are a few. KoT is not. Point KoT.

The 'few' is completely negligible. There are a handful of ways in each T1 offense to steamroll both Kot and Goliath. Non-CBN enhancements don't matter at all except against RLK's, which you will win the game anyway.

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Not when the amount of evil characters is relatively small. You have to have one in territory for Outpost to make a difference, and that leaves him vulnerable to Grail, Angel of the Lord, Meeting the Messiah, etc. It is an advantage, but TGT still has no problems with Phillies.

It doesn't make as much of an impact as mono-orange, but it still makes a difference and has far better chances at blocking TGT than meta defenses ever will.

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Genesis is most definitely T1, especially with all the soul gen it has.

Genesis was overrated out the gate, and many realized that when it still couldn't stay paced with Sam/TGT/Disciples. The slight advantage gained from the soul gen certainly does not bump them up a tier.

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JiP is the one good card against Genesis, and that only makes a big impact with Creation of the World.

So GG?

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Numbers. Samuel bands to David, Goliath plays an easily negated enhancement. GG.

Talking about pre-withdraw. CBN banding will do zilch against Goliath. Your only hope is to lead with a weak lineup hoping for the Goliath drop, but bluffing with weak Heroes aren't exactly hard to get over with other splash EC's.

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Phillies were the best or second best defense last year. They're not this year. Moot point.

The inclusion of Red in the T1 meta does not invalidate how strong Phillistines are. The odds are in favor of a Philly player if strictly speaking against the T1 meta. The odds are even greater if Genesis is included at T1.

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King of Tyrus on his own uses mind games as effectively as Goliath on his own does, and again, it allows your opponent to set up the rescue as he sees fit.

Lolwut? How does KoT possibly play mindgames? He blocks, he gets lucky if early game or he dies. Never comes back. Never forces you to rethink how to attempt a rescue. There are absolutely zero mind games there. Just a big beater ready to get steamrolled.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #24 on:** April 18, 2012, 11:14:11 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on April 18, 2012, 10:59:55 PM

5 cards are nothing when they are all tutored out easily. And as stated, Phillies do not need 5 cards committed to the theme to use them effectively.

You're forgetting that they still need to have Outpost out to be effective at all. If it's buried and you haven't added a few cards that can pull an evil fort, they're even less useful than normal.

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The 'few' is completely negligible. There are a handful of ways in each T1 offense to steamroll both Kot and Goliath. Non-CBN enhancements don't matter at all except against RLK's, which you will win the game anyway.

The 'few' matters when playing TGT. It's not a big deal really, however, it helps lessen that gap between Phillies and everything else (though it doesn't come to close to closing it). It also matters in isolated non-RLK incidents, and it's a big enough deal to worth noting in my opinion.

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It doesn't make as much of an impact as mono-orange, but it still makes a difference and has far better chances at blocking TGT than meta defenses ever will.

I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying that the difference isn't too huge a deal.

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Genesis was overrated out the gate, and many realized that when it still couldn't stay paced with Sam/TGT/Disciples. The slight advantage gained from the soul gen certainly does not bump them up a tier.

Genesis is not the power player people thought it was, but it's still going to make a presence in the meta, especially if non-meta defenses end up making any kind of an impact during the season, since Genesis does best against them, at least in my opinion.

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So GG?

I hardly think one possible card being played against another card is "GG". I played Genesis for roughly 50-60 games, give or take, and only got JiP'd after a Creation of the World once (and I still won that game).

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Talking about pre-withdraw. CBN banding will do zilch against Goliath. Your only hope is to lead with a weak lineup hoping for the Goliath drop, but bluffing with weak Heroes aren't exactly hard to get over with other splash EC's.

Good decks don't need to run with weak lineups after the first couple rounds.

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The inclusion of Red in the T1 meta does not invalidate how strong Phillistines are. The odds are in favor of a Philly player if strictly speaking against the T1 meta. The odds are even greater if Genesis is included at T1.

The only reason Phillies got a lot of use at last year's Nats was because of Goliath and because of the anti-purple tech. With Goliath not being as strong as he was against new heroes (red or otherwise), and Purple no longer dominating the meta, Phillies lost their luster.

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Lolwut? How does KoT possibly play mindgames? He blocks, he gets lucky if early game or he dies. Never comes back. Never forces you to rethink how to attempt a rescue. There are absolutely zero mind games there. Just a big beater ready to get steamrolled.

A KoT in territory has the exact same effect a Goliath has in territory. There are zero other mind-games Phillies can play, considering they all do pretty much the same thing.

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Author Topic: Elite Eight: 1. King of Tyrus vs. 1. Goliath (Read 6738 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy