Author Topic: Black Championship: Goliath vs. Gibeonite Delegates (Read 4680 times)

Professoralstad · « **on:** April 13, 2012, 11:29:16 AM »

Who is the better EC?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2012, 11:51:11 AM »

Gibeonite Delegates is soul gen, which helps you win games. Goliath helps you lose games by running you into Ahimilek. Gibeonites also has Tower of Thebez support and can't be AoTL'd. Goliath has a million ways to die.

Redoubter · « **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:50:17 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 13, 2012, 11:51:11 AM

Gibeonite Delegates is soul gen, which helps you win games. Goliath helps you lose games by running you into Ahimilek. Gibeonites also has Tower of Thebez support and can't be AoTL'd. Goliath has a million ways to die.

Agree so much with this. Let's not forget that CBP protection from discard plus the initiative allows so much to be done that your opponent will hate, and if you lose you generate a soul. Goliath just...dies. Fast.

Goliath and KoT are overrated by the community here, and I wonder how many of them have actually used Goliath successfully vs using Delegates successfully.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:58:41 PM »

This is an area where I'm really voting on theme, rather than the actual characters themselves. Canaanites are pretty bad in T1 because the best thing they have - Tower - is useless if you're splashing them in. Since Canaanites aren't really that efficient unless they're splashed into a larger defense, this makes them less than fantastic. They have good things about them, however, there are much better options for a mid-sized (roughly ten cards) defense, especially Assyrians and Babylonians. Philistines however, are really quite effective in small numbers, especially in the early game. They're really fantastic when put into a larger defense because of how shockingly good they are from the beginning of the game. At the end of the day, I see Goliath winning more battles overall than Delegates, especially since Delegates' protection from discard doesn't mean much when they don't have any effective CBN battlewinners.

Master KChief · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:03:04 PM »

Not a fan of either, but Goliath gets my vote. Goliath has near-infinite recursion and also has solid tutors in his theme.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:07:20 PM »

Delegates have great enhancements to use. Besides Trickery of course, you can play Hunger against a whole host of offenses and still be able to "lose" immediately because initiative doesn't pass. Now you've sniped the majority of their offense, still generate a soul, and it's effectively CBI when you lose the battle.

And yes, that works really well, just ask anyone this has messed up in my area

Goliath has never, ever, beaten me. And frankly, I have never run an offense that wouldn't kill him without a problem. You're never going to get initiative with him anyway, so as long as they have another option (and what deck doesn't?), he's useless.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:53:12 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on April 13, 2012, 10:03:04 PM

Not a fan of either, but Goliath gets my vote. Goliath has near-infinite recursion and also has solid tutors in his theme.

Goliath cannot be recurred except ONCE by Philistine Armourbearer!!!!!! The only philistines you can recur are Philistine Garrison and Philistine Priests. They are the ONLY generic philistines. Armourbearer is NOT generic. I looked it up.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:57:05 AM »

Quote from: Minion of Jesus on April 14, 2012, 10:53:12 AM

Quote from: Master KChief on April 13, 2012, 10:03:04 PM
Not a fan of either, but Goliath gets my vote. Goliath has near-infinite recursion and also has solid tutors in his theme.

Goliath cannot be recurred except ONCE by Philistine Armourbearer!!!!!! The only philistines you can recur are Philistine Garrison and Philistine Priests. They are the ONLY generic philistines. Armourbearer is NOT generic. I looked it up.

With Philistine Outpost you can (almost) infinitely recur Philistine Armorbearer, who will then recur Goliath. Armorbearer is indeed generic.

browarod · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2012, 11:24:57 AM »

I know it's been ruled that way because I always thought you were right, but the card itself doesn't say Generic and the REG listing doesn't have Generic in the identifiers. So, why is it treated as generic? I'm gonna double check with a RQ thread.

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2012, 11:31:35 AM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 14, 2012, 10:57:05 AM

With Philistine Outpost you can (almost) infinitely recur Philistine Armorbearer, who will then recur Goliath. Armorbearer is indeed generic.

He is generic, but this is actually something still not corrected in the REG, hence the confusion for Minion. We all take it for granted that he is generic, because he is always played that way. However, the REG and Visualizer both have him as unique (or not listed generic in the REG's case). This has been a discussion for years (see this thread).

So yes, you can recur him Minion, but only if you know that ruling. Sorry

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:06:22 PM »

YES! don't get me wrong, I am happy. I love Philistines.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:08:09 PM »

Quote from: browarod on April 14, 2012, 11:24:57 AM

So, why is it treated as generic?

The Bible.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:10:09 PM »

Goliath is a monster in the early game. He forces your opponent to have two good options to attack, and with Sites, he can often be an effective stall tactic. And it is fairly common to get Goliath in the early game, since having either Armorbearer or Philistine Outpost can get him out right away.

Gib Delegates is great, but really only in T2. Goliath is great in either type.

Redoubter · « **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:07:27 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 14, 2012, 12:10:09 PM

Gib Delegates is great, but really only in T2. Goliath is great in either type.

I very much disagree, asserting again that the soul gen is vital in T1 with the new rules. This in addition to his low numbers, protection from discard abilities (including AoTL and Grapes), and great Black enhancements should definitely put him over Goliath in either type.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #14 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:11:09 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 14, 2012, 09:07:27 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 14, 2012, 12:10:09 PM
Gib Delegates is great, but really only in T2. Goliath is great in either type.

I very much disagree, asserting again that the soul gen is vital in T1 with the new rules. This in addition to his low numbers, protection from discard abilities (including AoTL and Grapes), and great Black enhancements should definitely put him over Goliath in either type.

There are much better soul gen options, and black doesn't have that many great enhancements, even less that are CBN.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:17:16 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 14, 2012, 09:11:09 PM

There are much better soul gen options

Actually, there are not. Delegates is CBP, and FBTN cannot stop him. You can only interrupt him, and he's so small it's not going to matter anyway. He's actually the best soul gen EC out there because there are literally no ways to stop him if your opponent has 4 strength in battle (you can't prevent him, you can't AoTL or Grapes him, you can't get initiative, he just goes on over).

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #16 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:21:34 PM »

I'll take Survivor's CBI over Delegates' CBP any day. A toughness of 4 isn't as low as you think it is; there are plenty of characters who will still get initiative on him. Even if they don't, without Asherah Pole, he has one enhancement that's CBN (at least that I can recall). He plays an enhancement, initiative passes, and all sorts of nasty things can still be done.

Redoubter · « **Reply #17 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:28:18 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 14, 2012, 09:21:34 PM

I'll take Survivor's CBI over Delegates' CBP any day. A toughness of 4 isn't as low as you think it is; there are plenty of characters who will still get initiative on him. Even if they don't, without Asherah Pole, he has one enhancement that's CBN (at least that I can recall). He plays an enhancement, initiative passes, and all sorts of nasty things can still be done.

There is far more that will prevent your ability on the EC than there is to negate it after the fact. And I thought we were just talking about Soul Gen, because if that's all you wanted, then Delegates is the best. Seriously, find me a hero in actual use who gets initiative on Delegates but not on Survivor (this means, essentially, that they have to be a < 4 strength but a > 2 toughness).

On the enhancements, you'd be surprised how often Hunger can blow up a territory and still have you losing a battle (those bands aren't so helpful then), allowing you still to lose and soul gen. There are other great enhancements, but I don't want to give away everything I like to use with him

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:40:10 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 14, 2012, 09:28:18 PM

There is far more that will prevent your ability on the EC than there is to negate it after the fact.

In general I would agree, but I disagree entirely here. Black does not have many CBN enhancements, which makes any black character extremely vulnerable after playing an enhancement without Asherah Pole up. It doesn't matter if Delegates' ability is CBP if you give me the chance to play Edict, Bravery of David, or a handful of other enhancements that negate a character and an enhancement. Delegates may have protection when entering the battle, but during the battle, he's not that effective.

Quote

And I thought we were just talking about Soul Gen, because if that's all you wanted, then Delegates is the best.

We'll have to agree to disagree here, though Cupbearer is inarguably the best soul gen in the game.

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Seriously, find me a hero in actual use who gets initiative on Delegates but not on Survivor (this means, essentially, that they have to be a < 4 strength but a > 2 toughness).

It has nothing to do with initiative in itself, but what an EC can do with that initiative. The three other soul generation ECs (that see play anyway) have better enhancements to play on them.

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On the enhancements, you'd be surprised how often Hunger can blow up a territory and still have you losing a battle (those bands aren't so helpful then), allowing you still to lose and soul gen. There are other great enhancements, but I don't want to give away everything I like to use with him

I think you overestimate Hunger quite a bit. Nearly everyone in a Samuel banding chain is going to get killed by it, which frees up initiative. I think you might just be playing with people who don't know how to properly counter Gibeonites (no offense to anyone from our group).

Redoubter · « **Reply #19 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:45:55 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 14, 2012, 09:40:10 PM

I think you overestimate Hunger quite a bit. Nearly everyone in a Samuel banding chain is going to get killed by it, which frees up initiative. I think you might just be playing with people who don't know how to properly counter Gibeonites (no offense to anyone from our group).

It's not just Sam banding chains. It's also things like bulletproof Gideon (my absolute favorite), or bigger disciple bands like Philip-Bart, or countless other bands or big characters. They still have the initiative after Hunger, but you can still wipe out their territory (in the first case, you can snipe Sam, AwSN, most of the judges, and a bunch of red-band; in the latter, you can snipe James SoA, any GT ladies, and so on).

I understand the skepticism, but it seriously works more in practice than it seems to work on paper. Try it out sometime

MattsterNinja · « **Reply #20 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:29:46 PM »

One question, which Goliath? The reg. or promo?

Drrek · « **Reply #21 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:42:55 PM »

Quote from: MattsterNinja on April 14, 2012, 10:29:46 PM

One question, which Goliath? The reg. or promo?

The promo. There is no reason to play the regular if you have the promo.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #22 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:50:14 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 14, 2012, 10:42:55 PM

Quote from: MattsterNinja on April 14, 2012, 10:29:46 PM
One question, which Goliath? The reg. or promo?

The promo. There is no reason to play the regular if you have the promo.

There is no reason to play the regular outside of Booster or Sealed, period.

Redoubter · « **Reply #23 on:** April 14, 2012, 11:04:42 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 14, 2012, 10:50:14 PM

Quote from: Drrek on April 14, 2012, 10:42:55 PM
Quote from: MattsterNinja on April 14, 2012, 10:29:46 PM
One question, which Goliath? The reg. or promo?

The promo. There is no reason to play the regular if you have the promo.

There is no reason to play the regular outside of Booster or Sealed, period.

WRONG!

You can use the regular to use Philistine Chariots and Horses to draw-2-play-next without it being negated! HAHA!

News:

Poll

Who is the better EC?

Author Topic: Black Championship: Goliath vs. Gibeonite Delegates (Read 4680 times)

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk

browarod

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy