Author Topic: Which Samuel is better? (Read 5210 times)

Adevine · « **on:** July 13, 2017, 08:27:44 PM »

Okay so between the two Samuel(s) available for decks, which is the better one? RoA or COW?

I noticed they both are very different in the abilities.

ROA Samuel: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated.

COW Samuel: I Samuel Heroes have Site access. Protect I Samuel Heroes from capture. If a I Samuel or ☁ Hero begins a rescue, you may discard a Curse or evil Enhancement. Cannot be negated.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2017, 08:33:21 PM »

Technically they do indeed to very different things so one isn't "better" but for basically all practical purposes RoA Samuel is the one played. The ability to search out a Hero (And potentially 2 Heroes or 1 Hero and 1 Evil character depending on your deck), draw 2, and band CBN is very powerful. CoW Samuel just gives site access (almost worthless these days), protection from capture (not terrible but definitely niche), and some curse/enhancement removal (also not likely to matter often). Overall RoA Samuel provides much stronger value more consistently than CoW Samuel.

Adevine · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2017, 08:35:28 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 13, 2017, 08:33:21 PM

Technically they do indeed to very different things so one isn't "better" but for basically all practical purposes RoA Samuel is the one played. The ability to search out a Hero (And potentially 2 Heroes or 1 Hero and 1 Evil character depending on your deck), draw 2, and band CBN is very powerful. CoW Samuel just gives site access (almost worthless these days), protection from capture (not terrible but definitely niche), and some curse/enhancement removal (also not likely to matter often). Overall RoA Samuel provides much stronger value more consistently than CoW Samuel.

That is interesting since usually the newer updated card(s) are "better"...

megamanlan · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2017, 08:37:18 PM »

Quote from: Adevine on July 13, 2017, 08:35:28 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 13, 2017, 08:33:21 PM
Technically they do indeed to very different things so one isn't "better" but for basically all practical purposes RoA Samuel is the one played. The ability to search out a Hero (And potentially 2 Heroes or 1 Hero and 1 Evil character depending on your deck), draw 2, and band CBN is very powerful. CoW Samuel just gives site access (almost worthless these days), protection from capture (not terrible but definitely niche), and some curse/enhancement removal (also not likely to matter often). Overall RoA Samuel provides much stronger value more consistently than CoW Samuel.

That is interesting since usually the newer updated card(s) are "better"...

Not always: TEC False Prophet is quite a bit better then RoJ False Prophet

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2017, 08:46:39 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on July 13, 2017, 08:37:18 PM

Quote from: Adevine on July 13, 2017, 08:35:28 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 13, 2017, 08:33:21 PM
Technically they do indeed to very different things so one isn't "better" but for basically all practical purposes RoA Samuel is the one played. The ability to search out a Hero (And potentially 2 Heroes or 1 Hero and 1 Evil character depending on your deck), draw 2, and band CBN is very powerful. CoW Samuel just gives site access (almost worthless these days), protection from capture (not terrible but definitely niche), and some curse/enhancement removal (also not likely to matter often). Overall RoA Samuel provides much stronger value more consistently than CoW Samuel.

That is interesting since usually the newer updated card(s) are "better"...

Not always: TEC False Prophet is quite a bit better then RoJ False Prophet

RoJ TFP could at least see some niche play in magicians or a splash deck since he has a whole extra brigade over his earlier version. TEC's ability is definitely stronger though.

megamanlan · « **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2017, 09:53:23 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 13, 2017, 08:46:39 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on July 13, 2017, 08:37:18 PM
Quote from: Adevine on July 13, 2017, 08:35:28 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 13, 2017, 08:33:21 PM
Technically they do indeed to very different things so one isn't "better" but for basically all practical purposes RoA Samuel is the one played. The ability to search out a Hero (And potentially 2 Heroes or 1 Hero and 1 Evil character depending on your deck), draw 2, and band CBN is very powerful. CoW Samuel just gives site access (almost worthless these days), protection from capture (not terrible but definitely niche), and some curse/enhancement removal (also not likely to matter often). Overall RoA Samuel provides much stronger value more consistently than CoW Samuel.

That is interesting since usually the newer updated card(s) are "better"...

Not always: TEC False Prophet is quite a bit better then RoJ False Prophet

RoJ TFP could at least see some niche play in magicians or a splash deck since he has a whole extra brigade over his earlier version. TEC's ability is definitely stronger though.

Honestly, I can only see RoJ being used until we get more better Magicians.

The Guardian · « **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2017, 10:28:41 PM »

RoJ TFP can use Divination

CoW Samuel is a bit more niche...he fits very nicely in a 1 Samuel deck that isn't centered around Throne of David.

Red · « **Reply #7 on:** July 13, 2017, 10:32:14 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 13, 2017, 10:28:41 PM

RoJ TFP can use Divination

CoW Samuel is a bit more niche...he fits very nicely in a 1 Samuel deck that isn't centered around Throne of David.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2017, 10:35:38 PM »

RoJ TFP > TEC TFP

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2017, 10:55:27 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 13, 2017, 10:28:41 PM

CoW Samuel is a bit more niche...he fits very nicely in a 1 Samuel deck that is~~n't centered around Throne of David~~ bad.

FTFY

The same characters that have synergy with CoW Sam have just better synergy with RoA Sam. Unless the meta become outrageously capture focused or some super OP curse existed, CoW Sam is just bad.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2017, 01:18:29 AM »

One of my friends uses the CoW Samuel in a Judges deck, being that he doesn't have David or Saul in his deck.

kariusvega · « **Reply #11 on:** July 14, 2017, 02:53:50 AM »

CoW Samuel is very strong. Being able to discard their evil enhancements when your cloud hero begins a battle can be a game changer and stronger than negating play abilities (considering the strongest play abilities are cbp/cbn anyway). Him being protected from capture cbn has also gotten me through some very rough terrain

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 14, 2017, 07:43:01 AM »

In my T2 Throne deck I used 1 copy of each RA and CoW Samuel. Sam(RA) is who you want the first couple of turns for the fast set up. After that I always found myself looking for a way to get him off of the table so I could play Sam(CoW).

Josh · « **Reply #13 on:** July 14, 2017, 07:59:31 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on July 14, 2017, 02:53:50 AM

CoW Samuel is very strong. Being able to discard their evil enhancements when your cloud hero begins a battle can be a game changer and stronger than negating play abilities (considering the strongest play abilities are cbp/cbn anyway). Him being protected from capture cbn has also gotten me through some very rough terrain

One thing to keep in mind is that if you are using CoW Samuel, don't have a lot of capture abilities on defense. Otherwise, if your opponent is running a I Samuel offense, you're protecting his whole offense from capture.

Watchman · « **Reply #14 on:** July 14, 2017, 09:17:48 AM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 13, 2017, 10:55:27 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on July 13, 2017, 10:28:41 PM
CoW Samuel is a bit more niche...he fits very nicely in a 1 Samuel deck that is~~n't centered around Throne of David~~ bad.
FTFY

The same characters that have synergy with CoW Sam have just better synergy with RoA Sam. Unless the meta become outrageously capture focused or some super OP curse existed, CoW Sam is just bad.

You must not have used CoW Samuel much or know how to effectively use him if you say he's "just bad." I strongly disagree with your judgment of this card as I have used CoW Samuel very well in so many decks so many times. The fact of the matter is RoA is really only good if you have David or King Saul in your deck. Other than that he doesn't do anything. I have used RoA Samuel but only in Throne decks, which he is perfect for as noted above. However, versatility-wise I would go with CoW Samuel any day of the week over RoA Samuel. With all of the evil weapons, evil territory class placements and Curses out there he's a no brainer to put in a judges or prophets deck (he's in both of my kinds of these decks) or to splash into a deck. Site access, protected from capture AND any time a Cloud hero does a rescue you can discard a curse or evil enh is an excellent ability, all of which is CBN.

Andy, it comes down to this: if you are using David and/or King Saul in your deck then RoA Samuel would be your better option. Any other kind of deck (judges or Prophets or a Cloud heroes line-up, for example) then go with CoW Samuel. Even if you're using David the Psalmist in a prophets deck CoW Samuel may still be a better option over RoA Samuel as DtP would still work well within CoW Samuel's territory class ability. But if you want to be able to search out and band to DtP then use RoA Samuel.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #15 on:** July 14, 2017, 10:23:24 AM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on July 14, 2017, 09:17:48 AM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 13, 2017, 10:55:27 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on July 13, 2017, 10:28:41 PM
CoW Samuel is a bit more niche...he fits very nicely in a 1 Samuel deck that is~~n't centered around Throne of David~~ bad.
FTFY

The same characters that have synergy with CoW Sam have just better synergy with RoA Sam. Unless the meta become outrageously capture focused or some super OP curse existed, CoW Sam is just bad.

You must not have used CoW Samuel much or know how to effectively use him if you say he's "just bad." I strongly disagree with your judgment of this card as I have used CoW Samuel very well in so many decks so many times. The fact of the matter is RoA is really only good if you have David or King Saul in your deck. Other than that he doesn't do anything. I have used RoA Samuel but only in Throne decks, which he is perfect for as noted above. However, versatility-wise I would go with CoW Samuel any day of the week over RoA Samuel. With all of the evil weapons, evil territory class placements and Curses out there he's a no brainer to put in a judges or prophets deck (he's in both of my kinds of these decks) or to splash into a deck. Site access, protected from capture AND any time a Cloud hero does a rescue you can discard a curse or evil enh is an excellent ability, all of which is CBN.

Andy, it comes down to this: if you are using David and/or King Saul in your deck then RoA Samuel would be your better option. Any other kind of deck (judges or Prophets or a Cloud heroes line-up, for example) then go with CoW Samuel. Even if you're using David the Psalmist in a prophets deck CoW Samuel may still be a better option over RoA Samuel as DtP would still work well within CoW Samuel's territory class ability. But if you want to be able to search out and band to DtP then use RoA Samuel.

I suppose I could see him being run in a pure judges deck but it seems to me a straight judges deck would be suboptimal compared to a hybrid deck with a judges focus, one of the reasons specifically being you get to run RoA Sam. In prophets, I don't really see how giving up drawing cards and the option of a CBN band is worth some utility that will do literally nothing in some of your match ups. CoW Sam has the ability to find incredible value if you opponent is running curses or weapons and is useless if they aren't, while RoA Sam gives consistent value regardless of the opponent's deck.

I do want to note: all of my opinions about this are for Type 1. I don't play Type 2 at all but from what I know of it I can definitely see CoW Samuel being much better there for lots of reasons.

Note 2: I have not extensively tested straight judges with CoW Sam so I am kind of talking out of my rear on this. My argument is more on the fundamentals of consistent value over situational value.

Red · « **Reply #16 on:** July 14, 2017, 10:41:53 AM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on July 14, 2017, 09:17:48 AM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 13, 2017, 10:55:27 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on July 13, 2017, 10:28:41 PM
CoW Samuel is a bit more niche...he fits very nicely in a 1 Samuel deck that is~~n't centered around Throne of David~~ bad.
FTFY

The same characters that have synergy with CoW Sam have just better synergy with RoA Sam. Unless the meta become outrageously capture focused or some super OP curse existed, CoW Sam is just bad.

You must not have used CoW Samuel much or know how to effectively use him if you say he's "just bad." I strongly disagree with your judgment of this card as I have used CoW Samuel very well in so many decks so many times. The fact of the matter is RoA is really only good if you have David or King Saul in your deck. Other than that he doesn't do anything. I have used RoA Samuel but only in Throne decks, which he is perfect for as noted above. However, versatility-wise I would go with CoW Samuel any day of the week over RoA Samuel. With all of the evil weapons, evil territory class placements and Curses out there he's a no brainer to put in a judges or prophets deck (he's in both of my kinds of these decks) or to splash into a deck. Site access, protected from capture AND any time a Cloud hero does a rescue you can discard a curse or evil enh is an excellent ability, all of which is CBN.

Andy, it comes down to this: if you are using David and/or King Saul in your deck then RoA Samuel would be your better option. Any other kind of deck (judges or Prophets or a Cloud heroes line-up, for example) then go with CoW Samuel. Even if you're using David the Psalmist in a prophets deck CoW Samuel may still be a better option over RoA Samuel as DtP would still work well within CoW Samuel's territory class ability. But if you want to be able to search out and band to DtP then use RoA Samuel.

I played Judges Assyrian/Magicians from 2011-2016 off and on. I placed 1st or 2nd in every tournament I played that deck in except nationals 2016. I won Iron Man with that deck. I always ran Samuel+King David or King Saul. I tested CoW Samuel. CoW Samuel is awful in a straight Judges deck. He slows the deck down. The RoA Samuel is incredible due to his speed boost and his negation of play abilities, which is incredibly underrated. No 2k Horses, no Proud Pharisee, no Egyptian or Namaan's horses, and no play next off dream or swift horses. The ability to negate play abilities vastly improved the power and versatility of that deck. Instead of playing first, my opponents would have to eat at least one CBN enhancement due to Samuel's low numbers.

TL:DR, Red thinks RoA Samuel is better.

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** July 14, 2017, 11:05:36 AM »

As someone who usually plays Sam(RA) there's an important point that hasn't been mentioned. His speed value is greatly diminished if you don't get him early or if you draw David/Saul before he gets to search for them. That happens to me a decent amount of the time.

With the exception of a Coliseum heavy meta, one of Samuel's greatest perks is that he makes Samuel's Edict CBN. That can often be more important than anything else he brings to the table.

One perk that Sam(CoW) offers that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is that he can play off of Hidden Treasures. When making Sam(Ra) it was deemed too powerful to let him use Samson's Sacrifice pre-block.

The Guardian · « **Reply #18 on:** July 14, 2017, 11:21:02 AM »

Another small advantage to CoW Samuel is the bonus for being a Cloud Hero and getting the free recursion if you are running the Cloud fortress. Faith of Samson, Gideon, Samuel and Abel are near the top of the Cloud enhancements and while RoA Sam can use all of those as well, getting the recursion aspect is a nice addition.

Adevine · « **Reply #19 on:** July 14, 2017, 01:27:40 PM »

Man, this conversation is getting interesting!!

The Guardian · « **Reply #20 on:** July 14, 2017, 01:35:48 PM »

When working on the Cloud Heroes, we had some interesting decisions to make. Heroes like Abraham and Noah obviously needed much improved versions otherwise people wouldn't use them.

On the other hand, Heroes like Daniel and Samuel were already very strong so making them stronger than their previous versions seemed like a bad idea. What we attempted to do was create versions that were strong but that worked in different style decks. In a dedicated "Book of Daniel" deck, you're probably still going to use the Promo Daniel because of his band ability. In a White-based Cloud deck however, you're probably going to run CoW Daniel for his recursion potential.

Adevine · « **Reply #21 on:** July 14, 2017, 01:37:30 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 14, 2017, 01:35:48 PM

When working on the Cloud Heroes, we had some interesting decisions to make. Heroes like Abraham and Noah obviously needed much improved versions otherwise people wouldn't use them.

On the other hand, Heroes like Daniel and Samuel were already very strong so making them stronger than their previous versions seemed like a bad idea. What we attempted to do was create versions that were strong but that worked in different style decks. In a dedicated "Book of Daniel" deck, you're probably still going to use the Promo Daniel because of his band ability. In a White-based Cloud deck however, you're probably going to run CoW Daniel for his recursion potential.

Yeah, off topic, but I am rolling around the idea of a Cloud deck that includes the "big dogs".

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #22 on:** July 14, 2017, 03:12:17 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 14, 2017, 01:35:48 PM

In a dedicated "Book of Daniel" deck, you're probably still going to use the Promo Daniel because of his band ability. In a White-based Cloud deck however, you're probably going to run CoW Daniel for his recursion potential.

I'm actually using the Cloud Daniel in my Daniel deck, because he can recur Daniel enhancements, and most of my other Daniel characters (except Angels) can already band, so adding one more band isn't really that big deal, but I did consider the Promo Daniel (or one of each), so I think your original point still stands.

The Guardian · « **Reply #23 on:** July 14, 2017, 03:18:14 PM »

Promo Daniel just wrecks so many defenses that's it hard for me to switch to CoW Daniel. However, if we get a strong Silver/White Daniel battle winner at some point, that recursion is going to look so much more attractive.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #24 on:** July 14, 2017, 04:42:10 PM »

I've mainly been running solo and/or hybrid Judges since RoA (or since AUtO, I guess) and before Cloud of Witnesses I had David (Wa, Green) in pretty much every list to add some speed and have another Hero to play Wheel on. Once Cloud came out I swapped The Psalmist in for obvious reasons and never really bothered with CoW Sam. I tried running CoW Sam at Iowa State and cut David because I had a lot of Heroes. I think it definitely slowed the deck down quite a bit and it never seemed to help much. Even when I draw David before Sam I think I'm better off having another Hero for Wheel to hopefully get the most use out of it before big ol' Moe comes out. Overall, I think RoA Sam is better but it's certainly situational for the deck.

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Author Topic: Which Samuel is better? (Read 5210 times)

Adevine

Adevine

kariusvega

Adevine

Adevine