Cactus Game Design Message Boards

The I and J Starter decks are now 8 years old, which is hard to believe, and while no official announcement has been made and no plans are yet in the works (to my knowledge), it does seem like we are due for the next set of Starter decks within the next few years. Don't get me wrong, the I/J decks are certainly the best Starter decks to date and they I think they do a great job of introducing the game by limiting the complexity but still being enjoyable to play. However, being that they are fairly old and they're on a smaller card size than the rest of the cards in the new "Rotation" format, then it would make sense that we could see something new that could potentially even replace I/J in that format. (Tin 26 would probably also rotate out at point since it's the same size, but I'm sure we'd see a Scattered LR and we could probably lobby for a Foreign Wives one too.)

All that, plus recently teaching someone how to play, got me thinking, if I/J was so good, what could be done in K/L to make it better? There's space in this topic for new and experienced players alike. Experienced players have a good handle on the depth of the game and so may know how best to approach introducing abilities and card types, and newer players went through the process of learning the game more recently and thus can probably speak more to what was easy to pick up from the Starter decks, what was hard, and what were some things that you wish the Starters could have introduced but didn't or what, if anything, was too complicated for the first game.

So what would you like to see in new Starter decks as far as card types, abilities, classes, number of brigades, Reserve, etc.? What are your favorite things about I/J and what didn't you like? What other ideas do you have that could, on a Redemption product side of things, help people to learn the game? For example, perhaps a "Starter set" could come out alongside the starter decks that would just be a smaller Redemption expansion that would contain cards that relate to one or more themes contained in the Starters but increase the complexity slightly, perhaps with slightly more advanced abilites and card types. It may not be feasible or necessary, but it's one idea. Whatchy'all got for me?

To be clear, this is in no way official or necessarily going to be considered if/when new Starters come out, but the card creators are fairly involved with the community so it's likely someone will see your good ideas and maybe even make them happen. I'm sure this has been discussed before to some degree, potentially in a dedicated thread but certainly among various other discussions, but I thought it'd be fun to get people thinking and talking about it some more and have a good spot to reference the community's thoughts on what it takes to get someone into Redemption.

I would really like to see the brigades that have not made it into starter sets yet; clay and teal. I was actually thinking about ideas for this a few months ago. Daniel heroes were already on my mind before they took a hit with rotation. Without going into too much detail since I would love to pitch my ideas to the powers that be, my Brigades would be white, teal ,evil Gold, Grey in one deck and clay, green, crimson and pale green in the other. I would prefer one good and one evil brigade color per deck but it’s never been done that way. Most of these colors were absent from the last starter set so it would be nice to get them in it.

This is a really great discussion! I’m excited to see what you all come up with.

I understand the draw of single brigade offense and defense. But do you think we miss the opportunity to teach players that brigades must match to play enhancements if we do that?

Oh, and also some new souls would be nice of course. 

I think that new starters should teach more of the game than I/J did. I think Artifacts and Fortresses should be included in the new starters, along with a small reserve (5 cards), because missing the reserve entirely is just not a proper way to be introduced to the game. At this point, the reserve is a vital part of the game, and that shouldn't just change for any reason. One problem I've seen with the I/J starters is that they wear out quickly for people who play with them often, and I think some artifacts and a reserve would go a long way towards upping the customizability and replay value, therefore making it a more valuable and sought after product.

Addendum: Single Brigades plz.

Here are my thoughts on K/L-

Brigades:

While I agree single brigade decks are the way to go when having someone start deck building, I am not convinced it is the way to go for starter decks.

In the last 2 years I have taught close to 20 people to play Redemption in my playrgoup using the I/J starter decks. Learning how to match brigades for enhancements with characters seems straightforward enough but time and time again it takes a game or two for new players I am teaching to figure out and remember this. It is really nice having multiple brigades for offense and defense in the starter decks to help new players learn this mechanic.

Additionally, after a few games with the starter decks I have found members of my play group have gotten to play around with the various brigades in I/J and they pick which two are their favorite and decide to build a deck focused on a single offensive brigade and single defensive brigade. Since all most of them own card wise is the I/J starter decks and a few booster packs, having numerous options available for them to choose from is really quite nice.

Ideas:

1) I agree with Red adding Artifacts and Fortresses/Sites into the starter decks is a very good idea. I have always found it rather cumbersome to teach someone how to play a game with the starter decks and then be like a cheesy infomercial "but wait, there's more!" and introduce Artifacts, Sites, and Fortresses later. I learned how to play the game myself with the G/H starter decks back in the day and also with the E/F starter decks. I loved how the E/F starter decks had both Artifacts and Sites. This was good. However, it would be great if Sites/Fortresses are included in K/L if they have abilities. The sites in E/F (understandably so due to site lock being a thing) did not have abilities.

2) I think having both characters that do and do not have abilities is good but it would be great to have "meek" support cards in K/L for those without special abilities.

3) A 5 card reserve is a really great idea. Once again I would like to see the K/L starter decks be able to be a basic introduction to all major aspects of the game of Redemption.

4) I would love to see cards that interact with the "set-aside" area, "side battle", and "toss" introduced in K/L. In seeking to offer a basic introduction to all major aspects of the game all three of these have often been missing and adds to the "but wait, there's more!" factor.

5) Star abilities are such a big part of the game now including them on some cards in K/L would be good in my mind.

6) I would not mind seeing one or two "cloud" class cards in K/L. This is a common question I get from new players since they cannot figure out what the "cloud" is on their card. 

Positives of I/J:

I really do appreciate how I/J have Warrior class characters and weapon class enhancements. This is excellent to be able to teach those mechanics. Also having Territory Class enhancements in I/J is a great thing.

I felt I/J did a great job introducing banding mechanics. The Ruth offense and Disciples offense really helped with that.

The negate effects of Selfish Kinsman and Ruth are very good to show the power of FBTN type abilities.

Having multiple brigades on offense/defense is a good thing in my mind since that learning to match brigades is important to learn and for some odd reason is often hard for newcomers to get a grasp on in my experience.

Conclusion:

Overall I would love to see K/L be a basic introduction to all the card types and major aspects of the game of Redemption. Overall I have enjoyed teaching the game to newcomers using I/J but I feel there are too many important card types and major aspects of the game that are not included in I/J. Naturally there are so many things to learn about Redemption that it always is a "but wait, there's more" experience for even competitive players who learn new things all the time about the game and how it works. That being said I do believe all the card types and major aspects of the game should be introduced at a basic level in the starter decks.

To get back on the topic again I'd not recommend to include already all mechanics into the starter decks. But if so I would split some of them up (e.g. one deck build around some cloud stuff, another one around some Warrior/Weapon stuff) while having others in both (like sites, arts, forts, etc.).

What I would not recommend for starters would be dual aligned characters (maybe even DAEs should be used sparely if at all). Also meekyfing stuff can maybe left out (since if you cannot reset these cards those would be a one time use only).

Great thoughts and discussion guys. I think the "Deluxe" Starter set, like CS and Sean mentioned, is a cool idea to introduce concepts gradually rather than all at once. I was teaching someone lately who doesn't have a lot of experience with games like this and I think introducing every card type, Star abilities, and the Reserve in one game would have been overwhelming and potentially even offputting, but after one or two games with the Starter decks, we tried out a couple of Derek's old Challenger decks that are basically designed to be the next step after a Starter that still didn't have a Reserve, but had Sites, Forts, and Artifacts and I think that was helpful. I know some people pick up on these things quicker than others, so maybe they would be able to switch to the next set of decks in the "Deluxe" set sooner than others.

I also tend to agree more with CtheTree on the brigade topic. I think Gabe's point about brigade-matching is valid though not necessarily a driving factor because, like Noah said, brigade-matching is pretty easy once people get past the idea that the color of the card's border doesn't matter. Letting a player make the changes to try whichever of the brigades they like better in the Starter deck can be a nice way to get involved in improving the deck. Looking at MtG, most of the beginner packs that you can buy (as far as I know) have decks with two colors, which I think helps introduce the idea that certain cards can only be paid for with certain colors. Starters aren't meant to be competitive and, counter to Red's opinion, I don't think they're necessarily meant to be fun to play over and over again, but really just for teaching and moving on when you're ready. If you want to buy a pre-built deck that can be competitive and will have more variety in the games, then you can look at a posted list somewhere and buy those cards or check out the decks YTG has to offer. I could see the argument that Sealed deck could "wear out" with using the I/J decks, and I'm not the best to ask on that since I don't play Sealed deck all that often, but I always enjoy playing Sealed with the I/J decks since the packs introduce the variety. Perhaps that could be an additional argument in favor of "Deluxe" decks that will have a slightly more advanced pair of decks that could be used for Sealed to make things more interesting.

Regarding labelling Reserve cards for Starters, I don't know that there would be a good way to label them without making them unplayable or confusing, however, I think it would be a good idea to include a printed Reserve list for each deck that would come with it. That would introduce the idea that Reserve lists are required for tournaments and would make it easily adjustable.

If we were to stick with only one set of two decks, I think keeping classes like in I/J is good and I think adding one or two of the other card types/newer concepts, like maybe just Artifacts (no Covs or Curses) and Star abilities could be added. A five card Reserve sounds like it could be a good compromise for that too.

As a host and teacher of the game, I was a little overwhelmed by all of the new functionality that was added when I got back in the game the end of last summer.  It was a similar feeling that some newer players get when they attend their first tournament and meet more experienced players using more advanced card types.  Starter decks and playgroups have been great over the years in teaching players the basics of the game.  What if a K/L starter pack had the usual 50-card basic decks like A-J, but also include 12 extra "advanced" cards (6 for each deck) that provide an introduction to the more advanced card types.  The rulebook could lay out how to learn the basics of the game using the standard 50-card decks, but also include a section of how to add in the 6-extra advanced cards per deck to learn more advanced play.

Over the past few decades, many board and card games have included features and rules for basic and advanced play.  So it's quite common.  The new 112-card starter pack would definitely fit the bill for a great way to teach the game to newer players, both basic and advanced levels.  This would better prepare newer players for tournament play.

Marketing ideas for new starter decks –

1) VS theme decks based around central characters, like David vs. Goliath or Moses vs. Pharaoh

2) A special foil box-topper style card in each deck, something staple like Son of God.

3) A rule brochure instead of a rulebook, with simplified rules in a colorful and easy to understand layout.

4) Ditch the K/L alphabetic numbering, it won't make sense to new players who don't remember the A/B-I/J naming scheme.

5) Add brigade color names to the card template for color-blind players and people who might be confused about brigade colors like crimson vs. red/grey vs. silver, this is a big one for accessibility.

6) Display the brigades and themes of the decks on the packaging.

Getting back to the rule brochure: For Rotation format only or a general one (or maybe having 2 sections)?

Just tossing this out there (and I know it wouldn't be simple), but if a starter deck or decks could be combined to make a T2 deck, that would also be a great way to get some players into T2 that struggle creating the decks or getting cards for it.

Here are my suggestions:

- One brigade for offense and defense; or, if there are two, use more multi-brigade enhancements that work for both brigades.
- Include one simple fortress for each deck
- Consider adding Upkeep phase, but keep the abilities that interact with it simple (no counters; only cards like, Each upkeep, you may do X)
- Use a few dual-alignment cards, more specifically enhancements.  These are easy enough to understand how they work, and adds value and versatility to starter decks (and are common card types in competitive play)
- Artifacts are tricky sometimes, but I feel a simple one would be warranted, such as an ability like how Four Drachma Coin works
- Stay away from sites, covenants and curses, as these are a little more complex and, like Joe said, there's a site lock issue
- Keep warrior class and weapon class, as well as territory class (enhancements).  I would stay away from territory class characters as these tend to be a bit more complex, particularly when they enter battle and come back the ability re-activates
- I think star abilities are good and easy enough to understand, just limit them, and don't use cards that say "you may activate the star ability..."
- A Reserve is needed; just keep it at 5 cards
- Stay away from modifiers.
- Add abilities like "Negate an evil card" to deal with cards like Ishbibenob b/c there are currently no ways to negate Ish when he uses his discard ability on a Hero strength 10 or greater.
- Stay away from interrupts and stick with negates.  Interrupts are more confusing.
- Introduce neutral cards as an alignment and have abilities that target them, particularly if artifacts are going to be incorporated and if there will be more soul abilities
- Use more souls with abilities but keep those abilities simple enough so that the new player doesn't need to keep up with them.  For example, maybe have most of them be they gain an immediate benefit when they're drawn, while only having a couple with a pending trigger when they're rescued, etc. 
- Introduce the meek key word
- Have meek souls on one starter deck with abilities that benefit from having them so as to off-set the abilities one gains with having souls with abilities.

Having used E/F starter decks when I was first introduced to Redemption years ago, and having used I/J decks and taught lots of people with the I/J decks, I feel the I/J decks are just right for teaching the game, so continue this theme with K/L but add a few more cool features/card types to keep players interested.  DO NOT go back to how E/F was with its complex rulebook, modifiers, etc.  That was quite overwhelming and I simply didn't understand how to play the game as it was too complex for new players.