Author Topic: "Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants  (Read 2211 times)

Offline Gabe

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"Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants
« on: July 15, 2013, 01:27:26 AM »
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All Redemption starter decks from A/B to G/H have had the same dominants in common. One deck gets Angel of the Lord, Son of God and Christian Martyr. The other deck gets Angel of the Lord, Son of God and Burial. That system has worked for several years so why the change with I/J?

Our desire for I/J was that the decks would be simple, but fun to play. We wanted to design the best teaching tool Redemption has seen. Not having a lost soul to rescue for several turns, also known as "soul drought", can take the fun away from a game. Burial encourages "soul drought", as do the single color sites that were found in E/F and G/H. From the start we decided to omit both. We decided the obvious thing to do was to replace Burial with Christian Martyr, keeping both decks at 3 dominants.

Fairly early in our testing for I/J, discussions about the dominant cap started. If implemented it would give us the freedom to print more dominants. We felt that we had room to add a 2nd evil dominant, bringing the total dominant count to 4 per deck. Mayhem had not yet received errata. We were looking for effective options to counter the dreaded "first turn Mayhem" (FTM) and came up with Vain Philosophy. It was never as effective as we'd hoped against FTM for reasons I won't get into here. This is the original version of Vain Philosophy that was added to both I and J.



Looking back I don't see that anyone was all that happy with this version. Some were concerned that we were creating a whole new problem in an attempt to combat FTM. Other's had not yet got the memo that these were simple starters and insisted that we needed to add sites and/or fortresses so we can make a dominant that targets those for removal.

One of the most common problems we faced in starter deck games was that Vain Philosophy could not be played on your turn, so it was being discarded during the discard phase to get a players hand down to 8 cards. We discussed a number of ways to change the card. One thought was to just go back to 3 dominants and make Vain Philosophy an evil enhancement. Another was to remove the turn restriction all together. With that change it could be used as an offensive battle winner against evil dominants though. That isn't something we wanted from an evil dominant.

There was a lot of discussion about the evil dominant spot in our second round of testing. Another idea that came up was to print two different versions of Vain Philosophy, an OT version and an NT version with different abilities. This is the first time a card that went by the name of Discord came up. It was added to our list of cards to test, however both decks still contained Vain Philosophy.



Testing results showed that the new version of Vain Philosophy was good. Discord was less impressive but served a good purpose in the starter decks. The Ruth band had been rather difficult to stop for the Philistine defense early in our testing. Discord helped with that. We also discussed the combo with Herod Agrippa II and potential T2 uses. We agreed that nothing was broken but more testing was warranted. Discard replaced Vain Philosophy in the J deck, but no other changes were made to either card during this round of testing.

During the following round of testing we noticed the Discord had some unnecessary verbiage in the special ability so we trimmed it down.



We were about half way through testing at this point. During the later half of our testing we didn't feel that any additional changes were needed for the special ability on either of these dominants.

Has anyone noticed up to this point that Vain Philosophy was in the I deck and Discord was in the J deck? If you've seen the final version of these cards you know that each was actually printed in the opposite deck. Part way through our testing we decided to swap that two decks around so that the "J" deck is Judges and the "I" deck is Disciples.

The last change came after testing was over, while Rob was putting the cards into the new layout and updating the scripture from the KJV to the NASB. While the KJV used the term "discord" the NASB did not. There were a hand full of cards that received name changes as a result. Discard was changed to Strife.



I hope you've enjoyed this insight into the development of the I/J decks and the thought process that went into the decisions we made. If there are other cards from the starters or tins you'd like to hear about give them a shout out and I'll consider writing about them if there's an interesting story to share.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 10:33:35 AM by Gabe »
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: "Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 08:50:11 AM »
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That was a great bit of insight into these decks, thanks!

One card I am curious about is Lahmi. Why did he lose his banding ability (and ability in general)? You said that the philistine deck had a hard time with the Ruth band, but if Lahmi was able to band to another giant, that could solve the issue as well.

Plus, Judges received a beautiful counter to this band:


Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: "Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 09:26:08 AM »
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One card I am curious about is Lahmi. Why did he lose his banding ability (and ability in general)? You said that the philistine deck had a hard time with the Ruth band, but if Lahmi was able to band to another giant, that could solve the issue as well.

The band would have to be CBN, since Ruth negates ECs. I agree, though, that Giant banding would have been fun. Of course, until a proper counter came up, the new player who had to oppose a Giant band (especially early in the game) could possibly be stuck with no way to oppose them for several turns.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: "Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 10:15:48 AM »
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The reason Lahmi had no special ability was that we were given direction that a certain number of characters from each deck should have no special ability. This is to reduce complexity, but also emphasize the numbers part of battle for players learning the game. Lahmi just ended up being one of the selections to get no SA.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: "Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 10:26:44 AM »
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One card I am curious about is Lahmi. Why did he lose his banding ability (and ability in general)? You said that the philistine deck had a hard time with the Ruth band, but if Lahmi was able to band to another giant, that could solve the issue as well.

Good question, Lambo. Both of the previous responses are true, but there's more to the story as well. The Philistine Giants could probably make for an interesting story.
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: "Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 10:36:02 AM »
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The reason Lahmi had no special ability was that we were given direction that a certain number of characters from each deck should have no special ability. This is to reduce complexity, but also emphasize the numbers part of battle for players learning the game. Lahmi just ended up being one of the selections to get no SA.

That's interesting about the set number of no SA characters. The one thing that bugs me about Lahmi is that he gains nothing from having no SA. Angel at Bethesda, Legion of Angels, Posessing Demon, and Pilates Soldier's are all generic so you can have 3x out at once, and Judges are starting to get a No SA hero strategy within their theme.

Lahmi was just kinda left in the cold with no benefit.

Good question, Lambo. Both of the previous responses are true, but there's more to the story as well. The Philistine Giants could probably make for an interesting story.

Oooh, this sounds interesting.  :)

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: "Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 11:11:53 AM »
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I think a CBN-banding Lahmi would have been lots of fun, especially when banded to promo Goliath, or 12FG.  ;D
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: "Philosophy" of Starter Deck Dominants
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 06:56:23 PM »
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During the following round of testing we noticed the Discord had some unnecessary verbiage in the special ability so we trimmed it down.

Actually, that change was very important, as it removed the "in battle" restriction and therefore (due to the default conditions on Withdraw), it affects all battles instead of just the current one (as the original wording would have done).  Whether that was the original intent of the card or not, it is very interesting to look at the development of the card, and how one minor change (to remove something 'superfluous') actually changes the ability to something much more potent and combo-worthy.

 


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