Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Saul/Paul is a good example, and ironically also King Saul.  King Saul has a hero version AND an EC version, and I think this was great.  Naaman is another good example.  Why are there not more of these?  Have you ever thought of these, just going off of the bible?

Simon (the Sorceror) - He became a Christian right?  And he repented right?  Why do we only have an EC version of him.

Joab/Abiathar - These were good friends of David who eventually joined with Adonijah instead of Solomon.  Should there be  EC version of them?  (Or is there one of Joab already?  Solomon said that he killed two men better and more righteous than he was)

Solomon - Isn't this one just begiing for an evil version of King Solomon?

Joseph's Pharoah - Wasn't he a good and fair man?

Nebuchadnezzar - Seems to me that he was humbled and became good.

Darius - Definitely had a moment of regret and praise of God, and he cared for Daniel a lot.  Not sure how permanent his "conversion" was though.

Gamaliel - Why is he even listed as a hero?  Just because he stopped them from beating the apostles, did this make him a Christian?  His star pupil Saul is considered an evil character.  This one always baffled me.

Demas - Shouldn't there be a good version too, before he fell away?

Gehazi - Elisha's servant (Or was it Elijah?).  Do we even have a card for him yet?

The two thieves - have one good and one bad maybe?

I'm sure I can think of others as I devote more time to it.  What are some bible characters that you can think of that should/could maybe have two versions?

And I do understand that there's still (hopefully) much more of Redemption to be made, but have the designers ever thought of these characters?

Thanks for your feedback.  This is the first of several threads I'd like to start about comparing Redemption to the bible (and by the way I feel Redemption gets it right a LOT more than it does wrong).

Simon (the Sorceror) - He became a Christian right?  And he repented right?  Why do we only have an EC version of him.

Simon Magus tried to buy the power of Christ from the Apostles (this is where we get the term "Simony" from). After he was sent on his way, he began the Gnostic heresy which has plagued the Church ever since then. He died when Peter prayed against him during a re-enactment of the ascension. Definitely just Evil.

Joab/Abiathar - These were good friends of David who eventually joined with Adonijah instead of Solomon.  Should there be  EC version of them?  (Or is there one of Joab already?  Solomon said that he killed two men better and more righteous than he was)

Joab was pretty consistently a bad dude in the Bible. Idk why he's a Hero in the first place.

Joseph's Pharoah - Wasn't he a good and fair man?

Nebuchadnezzar - Seems to me that he was humbled and became good.

Darius - Definitely had a moment of regret and praise of God, and he cared for Daniel a lot.  Not sure how permanent his "conversion" was though.

All three of these start the story as pagan kings. All three of them ended up repenting (apparently genuinely). But I think it's right to treat O.T. Conversions different. First, Saul/Paul is double-sided because his conversion was a lynch pin of history. Imo, just give these guys a "Nebuchadnezzar Repents" type card or a Conversion clause (if Joseph is in play Convert after battle, etc.)

Demas - Shouldn't there be a good version too, before he fell away?

Should there be a good version of Ananias? Sapphira? I'd say leave it be so we don't open up another Pandora's Box with the Calvanists and Arminians.

Gehazi - Elisha's servant (Or was it Elijah?).  Do we even have a card for him yet?

No.

The two thieves - have one good and one bad maybe?

The Wicked Thief is already a card.

Solomon - Isn't this one just begiing for an evil version of King Solomon?

No. He was never evil. Compromised, but he never really abandoned God, just failed him near the end of his life. The Bible treats him as ultimately good, so Redemption is right on.

The Demons believe, and tremble. There is no evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for Simon being anything but evil. If you want more information, just Wiki "gnosticism" or "Simon Magus" and follow the links. There's a lot of cool stuff to be found.

I agree that Solomon did bad stuff in the middle, but you have already pointed out that he likely repented before the end. There's not a character in the Bible that didn't do bad stuff (sometimes worse than Solomon) at some point in his life.

Acts 8:13 "And even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip; and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed."

Acts 8:24 "But Simon answered and said, 'Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."

Seems we're being hard on Simon if we say that when the scriptures say that when he believed in verse 13, it means a different "belief" from all the others in the preceding verse 12.

Out of curiosity, do you disagree with King Saul being an evil character too, as you do with Solomon?  I agree that there's not a character in the bible that didn't do bad stuff at some point in his life, but you seem so eager to condemn Simon who seems in fear of his soul and wants the apostles to pray for him, and Solomon who worships idols for years and we're told "did evil in the sight of the Lord", but he was never evil?

Is Saul/Paul an evil character when he is Saul?  He never intended to do evil, and he lived in all good conscience believing that by persecuting the church he was doing the will of God.  But his works were actually evil.  In other words, you don't have to know its evil for it to be considered evil by God.

But I didn't mean to start a debate.  I was just curious if there are other examples that some had thought of where a character could be represented by both a good and evil version.

Um, wow.  What exactly would Solomon have had to do to ever be considered an evil character?  Saul did many GOOD things too, right.  I agree that there should be an evil King Saul, but am I all alone on an evil Solomon card?  We have so many evil characters in the game who did a LOT fewer evil things that we know of than Solomon did.  Basically everything that God prophesied in Deuteronomy that their future kings should NOT do, Solomon did it.  Going to Egypt to purchase horses for his chariots, gross multiplication of his wealth, and according to his people not being very generous with it.  Marrying pagan foreign women, and then building high places of worship and human sacrifice for thier gods, and then worshipping their gods.  NOT obeying/honoring his father's dying words to him to not deviate from God's word to the right or to the left.  In fact, we praise him for his great wisdom when he suggests dividing the child of the two harlots, and ignore the fact that they should have both been executed for harlotry.  The you have God's angry reply to him for his sins, and we're flat out told that he "did evil in the sight of the lord", the very same phrase used for all the other evil kings that we have evil character cards for.

May I humbly suggest that if I just described this person to you, without naming any names and just listing everything that they did wrong, we would all agree that I was describing an evil person.  Is there anything redeeming said of Solomon in the New Testament, concerning his faithfulness?

I am thouroughly enjoying the debate. To Steffer's defense, he never said that there shouldn't be an evil version of David as well. He did say that there would be more characters coming in this regard. I think alternate versions of good/evil characters are viable yet problematic for gameplay. It would be impossible for evil versions of good characters to block thier good personas. It seems to me that a Philosophy style (Good/Evil- Multi brigade Promo) temporary convert card would be the best solution in this sense. If the characters are reprinted, they should have specific disclaimers that either discard thier alternate persona's or, in Solomon's case, set aside until certain criteria are met.

I will be thinking of cards to post regarding this thread and you can look to the New Card Ideas thread to find them.

Adding evil versions of heroes to the game would totally change the game for the worse. The setup for the game now is just like it should be. It reflects basic elements of Christianity...
Aren't heroes sinning where we get most of our Evil Enhancements? And that's the way it should be. These Heroes were men and women of God, but their sinful actions had negative consequences most of the time. I.E. "Moses Kills Egyptian".. Instead of taking that verse and making a "convert moses" card... it is made into a generic evil enhancement. Moses did sin, but that doesn't make  him an "Evil Character"... His action caused him to flee, That's why that card is a set aside card, and not a convert.

Aaron made a Golden Cow while Moses was getting the ten commandments. Aaron not only opened up his heart to the worship of false idols, but led the people of Israel in it as well.

And it seems the majority of the brown defensive cards are King Saul's mistakes.

These Heroes shouldn't be converted by their mistakes.. because their mistakes don't define them. David was considered a man after God's own heart... but He committed some pretty vile acts. Acts that obviously don't define him, but acts that have their consequences. And that is where we get most of our evil enhancements, from the mistakes the heroes make. Because isn't that how the devil works? He uses our short comings to try and tear us down, and make us give up. Thank goodness for the shield of faith!

Shoes of Peace ftw.

But to say that Cactus comes down on either side of the debate is flawed thinking. True, there is a Falling Away card, but there is also the Guardian of your Souls card. The Adonijah card I think reflects more the "oops" of having made Joab a Hero in the first place. Then there's also the fact that the once saved always saved concept is never applied, even by its strongest adherents, to the old covenant. That was based entirely on your standing in the Hebrew laws of atonement. Therefore, having a Good Saul and an Evil Saul makes sense no matter which side of the argument you're on.

For any theological standpoint, I don't think Redemption can be offensive. Yeah, rescuing Captured Demons, but that's a gameplay hiccup rather than something that's there by design. Rob has done a wonderful job of balancing it and making it a Christian card game, rather than a Catholic, or Calvanist, or Southern Baptist or what have you card game.

FWIW, sometimes it's just good for gameplay. Windows of Narrow Light+TToD+King Saul ftw.

Saul/Paul is a good example, and ironically also King Saul.  King Saul has a hero version AND an EC version, and I think this was great.  Naaman is another good example.  Why are there not more of these?  Have you ever thought of these, just going off of the bible?

Simon (the Sorceror) - He became a Christian right?  And he repented right?  Why do we only have an EC version of him.

Joab/Abiathar - These were good friends of David who eventually joined with Adonijah instead of Solomon.  Should there be  EC version of them?  (Or is there one of Joab already?  Solomon said that he killed two men better and more righteous than he was)

Solomon - Isn't this one just begiing for an evil version of King Solomon?

Joseph's Pharoah - Wasn't he a good and fair man?

Nebuchadnezzar - Seems to me that he was humbled and became good.

Darius - Definitely had a moment of regret and praise of God, and he cared for Daniel a lot.  Not sure how permanent his "conversion" was though.

Gamaliel - Why is he even listed as a hero?  Just because he stopped them from beating the apostles, did this make him a Christian?  His star pupil Saul is considered an evil character.  This one always baffled me.

Demas - Shouldn't there be a good version too, before he fell away?

Gehazi - Elisha's servant (Or was it Elijah?).  Do we even have a card for him yet?

The two thieves - have one good and one bad maybe?

I'm sure I can think of others as I devote more time to it.  What are some bible characters that you can think of that should/could maybe have two versions?

And I do understand that there's still (hopefully) much more of Redemption to be made, but have the designers ever thought of these characters?

Thanks for your feedback.  This is the first of several threads I'd like to start about comparing Redemption to the bible (and by the way I feel Redemption gets it right a LOT more than it does wrong).

I think that it is because of the conversion .