Cactus Game Design Message Boards

FA is just a joke way to make cards worth more on the secondary market.

This has never been a bad thing with CCGs. Again, Redemption desperately needs that boost within its playerbase where players are compelled to continue buying packs for that hard to find ultra or variant. It keeps players engaged while also boosting the value of the secondary market. Its a win-win for both sides.

Double post O:

In regards to the current direction Redemption is going I think we can admit the game is at a low point, there just arent that many people playing the game. With the release of the new starter deck the game can go a few directions. Ill just list some observations based on other ccg/tcg/tmg/cmg games in the past.

1. Continue the same path the game is going. Release the starter. Possible redesign of cards. Continue to do tins/texp sets maybe get a booster set if we are lucky. My theory is the game will die out in maybe 5 or 6 years. This is the easiest thing to do from a producer stand point. Cause of death is sometimes games get too big for their own good and the small expansions cannot support the growing game TMGs/CMGs in particular are notorious for this.
Previous games that have done this and died within a similar time frame when game hit a low point.... VS TCG, Middle Earth CCG, Star Wars CCG, Star Wars CMG, Axis and Allies (various versions) CMG, Pirates of the Spanish Main CMG, 7th Sea, War Hammer TCG, Buffy TCG, Netrunner CCG, Shadowrun CCG, Lord of the Rings Hex Combat TMG ect.

2. I call this the Decipher option. Keep ALL the basic mechanics of the game but "redesign it" basically make a 2.0 version of the game. All the new cards are compatible with past sets but new cards are more simple ect. basically you make a new base set and start over. This can either revive a game or kill it as shown by Decipher. Rather risky from a producer standpoint since old stock is no longer valid but for players the old stock is still fine for playing casual games so its not all bad.
Games the "2.0" redesign has worked for... Star Trek 2.0 CCG, Legend of the Five Rings TCG, Hero Clix, ect. (you can also include Pokemon in this example but meh). Games it DID NOT work for... Lord of the Rings TCG, Game of Thrones TCG, Wars TCG (reboot of Star Wars TCG), Mage Knight 2.0 TMG, really any game by Decipher, ect.

3. I call this the Fantasy Flight Games approach aka the LCG. The LCG has the biggest possible win/loss ratio in that it can be SUPER profitable or the game can tank and your dead. What a LCG does is revive a old property by using all the same mechanics from previous game but redesigning the cards and making a new base set. From there 60 card AP packs are release periodically with "deluxe" 120 card packs released bi annually. The LCG format has been wildly successful since it makes it practical to play some pretty awesome ccg's for cheap prices. The downside ALL previous product is worthless (literally) which means Rob and players will have product you can barley even give away. But you can revive a great game from the dead so it can be worth a shot.
Games that have been revived via LCG or LCG lite format... Game of Thrones LCG, Netrunner LCG, Cthulhu LCG, Hero Clix, Wings of Glory WW1, Wings of Glory WW2, ect.

I personally think we need to risk number 2. The game has just gotten too big. The game needs to be downsized and redesigned to make it more accessible with the starter decks we are already half way there.

Ill update this post if I get any more ideas/things to add.

I don't think Redemption will ever die. A CCG based on the number one most read book in the world? Far from dying!

Is this sarcasm?

Because:

Quote from: KingLeo on January 21, 2013, 03:28:50 PM

I don't think Redemption will ever die because it has the living and breathing word of God on it.

KingLeo

So did The Mission, SoulQuest, Bible TCG, Bible Battles and Timestream

Double post O:

Approved. 

  about the good discussion part!

MKC is not known for his optimism. 

Haha yeah, I'm usually the fall guy for being a pessimist (or realist as I put it), but I honestly wasn't trying to be negative. Only pointing out that CCGs based on the Bible thus far are not indicative towards its market survivability.

Quote from: Daniel on March 21, 2013, 12:30:19 AM

Redemption has an extremely loyal fanbase, so I think it would take a little more than expansions ceasing to kill off the game.

Let me point out that when myself and other players talk about a game being dead it means from a commercial standpoint the game has ceased production and has no hope of being revived by the original company.

Agree, this is what most people mean by dead. Also want to point out some games die out but get picked up again by other companies (Universal Fighting System went through Sabertooth Games, Fantasy Flight Games, and the now current Jasco Games.)

Many games that are "dead" are still alive and have thriving communities. For example... Star Wars CCG, Star Trek CCG, Lord of the Rings TCG, Middle Earth CCG, Netrunner CCG and a few others are still alive and kicking. Many dead games are still active under the leadership of PC's (Player Communities) with new official "digital" sets being produced and tournaments being run. But officially the game for all practical purposes is dead.

FWIW, there are commercial reboots of a number of these games (LotR, NetRunner, etc.). As far as I know these are all being released as LCGs.

As far as a large commercial retailer such as WalMart goes, I wonder how much product Cactus would need to guarantee to get placement in those stores.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 21, 2013, 02:41:33 AM

FWIW, there are commercial reboots of a number of these games (LotR, NetRunner, etc.). As far as I know these are all being released as LCGs.

Not that it matters but the Lord of the Rings LCG is not a reboot of either the Lord of the Rings TCG by Decipher or Middle Earth CCG by ICE it is a new game created by FFG (the Star Wars LCG is a new game too not a reboot). NetRunner CCG by Wizards of the Coast still has a separate following due to a number of things altered to make it more accessible as a LCG. The only card game reboots produced by FFG so far that are LCG's are Android NetRunner LCG, The Game of Thrones LCG and the Cthulhu LCG.

I think Game of Thrones and Call of Cthulu were both brought out as LCGs from the beginning so they really aren't reboots either. So I am more wrong than even you thought. What I meant to say was that recently Fantasy Flight has brought out new LCG games based in the same universe of CCGs that have previously failed commercially.

I think there would be a number of advantages if Cactus moved to a similar type of distribution model for Redemption.* In particular having a starter edition that included multiple (mix and match) decks would possibly have been more enticing to newer players. Moreover by pitching it as a complete standalone experience, Cactus may have been able to get t placed into more mainstream game stores.

*On the other hand, I can't think of any examples where a CCG transitioned to an LCG mid-stream, so it may not be viable.

i got the action bible and i read it already from genesis to revelation in a matter of days cause once you start reading it, your NOT gonna wanna put it down

Quote from: New Raven BR on March 21, 2013, 11:37:30 AM

i got the action bible and i read it already from genesis to revelation in a matter of days cause once you start reading it, your NOT gonna wanna put it down

Book of Revelation is even better. Some of the best graphic novel art I've ever seen, and that says a lot.

the action bible is directed towards some of the younger readers like around 12 or so but it's still a good read, and im fully intending on reading it through AGAIN cause its awesome

At the people saying the game is too big,

That's ludicrous. A given magic STANDARD format, has as many cards as all of our sets or extremely close to it.

Uh, has anyone in this thread said that?