Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I would suggest leadership consider banning Haman's Plot form the game. MTG Chaos Orb was ripped BY THE PLAYER'S CHOICE to maximize effectiveness. But, to force a player to consume/destroy their product is counter to what I personally view the spirit of the game as.

Still pushing for my preferred Haman's Plot errata...

Holder may discard any three characters in play or in a set-aside area. But, then, holder must give this card to his opponent for keepsies. Cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated.

The idea being that transferring ownership of the HPlot to your opponent, permanently removes it from the current tournament (which is what the ripping was intended to do), but does it in a way that reinforces the spirit of Redemption as opposed to countering it.

Also not crazy about the "for keepsies" wording, but wanted to make sure that the "give" was an honest-to-gosh "remove it from my collection and give it to my opponent to do with as he/she pleases."

The REG is already 140 pages, what is two or three more lines simply defining "for keepsies" going to hurt? 

*Edit*  I bet this would also have more people be willing to play it.  I have several students who don't want to use it simply because of the "cost."  If they knew that them using it could win them the game and let one of their friends use it later, they would probably be more willing to play it.  I know I wouldn't mind giving some up from my collection if this was the ability.  As of right now, when I do use them I always have a Haman's Gallows to try to keep as many as possible.

“For Keepsies”
         

Legacy Rare in the next set please.   

I would suggest leadership consider banning Saint of Virtue from the game. I am not whining about the unfairness of me having the slightest disadvantage due to the female-only Lost Soul. Rather, I believe it opens the door to potential controversy that I brought up even when it was first released. At some point, Cactus will have to rule on its gender if and when a transgender player enters a tournament. As far as I know, it hasn't happened, but I pose the question of whether you want to enter in to that discussion and make a determination. It might be easier to ban the card.

I would suggest leadership consider banning Haman's Plot form the game. MTG Chaos Orb was ripped BY THE PLAYER'S CHOICE to maximize effectiveness. But, to force a player to consume/destroy their product is counter to what I personally view the spirit of the game as. Obviously, I'm not Cactus or on the leadership team, but I value the collectability and to ask me to destroy it just to play it turns it in to a consumable, which isn't what I feel I signed up for when I started collecting.

Thanks for the consideration!

RE: Saint of Virtue -- before we go the ban route, I think it would be fine to errata the gender identifier to say "Choose to be male or female when put in play" much like the dual-alignment characters. Different people will obviously have differing opinions on the transgender topic. While it's good to discuss those different viewpoints, and I don't think we should avoid that topic, but the middle of a Redemption game is not the time or place for that discussion IMO. Obviously it's a card that does not see much play, but I am currently working on putting together an errata list (based on the posted errata list) that will be downloadable for hosts, and I will bring up that idea for review.

Are you thinking of Faithful Servant?

We're talking about Saint of Virtue. 

Spoiler (hover to show)

Usually when we have characters like that (Faithful Servant, Saint of Virtue) we use the art and the verse to make gender classifications. However, more recently we have also done male and female versions of the same character (i.e. the two "Christian Soldier" cards from Persecuted Church). If we were to remake Faithful Servant (a definite possibility), my guess is we would do a male and female version with different but comparable abilities.   

I have to say that I have never been a fan of banning or changing the eratas. Let's be honest. Just because a great combo is developed doesn't mean, "Oh no! It's going to dominate the game and make it no fun! We have to change it!" The minute you ban a card you make it easier for you to ban cards again and again (we have a ban list now, just put it there and be done with it).

When you change the Eratas, you have to make sure everyone knows how the card has changed. Every Nationals I have attended, I have had to deal with Erata changes that I nor my team were aware of. This made our decks totally useless.

Now on the note of Mayhem, It did exactly what it was supposed to do, cause MAYHEM. When you shuffle it, there was no guarantee you would get the cards you wanted. You might as well change the name because if you get to keep part of your hand then there is no Mayhem. The card has been (as another player told me) neutered.

The liners have been a staple in a lot of my kids decks, (it's in three of mine). It actually hurts the deck builder 50% of the time because their deck has an extra Lost Soul. If it's buried, we have a way to get it back. I don't see what the Champions/Elders are afraid of. (And yes I stated that exactly right).

When the Heroes in the Bible were faced with a challenge, they didn't run from it which is what we are doing. They knew God was there to help them. If a card scares you, make a card that counters it. Make a Dominant that can interrupt a Dominant. That way mayhem has a buffer. Make cards to stop them, NOT RULES.

I have to say that I have never been a fan of banning or changing the eratas. Let's be honest. Just because a great combo is developed doesn't mean, "Oh no! It's going to dominate the game and make it no fun! We have to change it!" The minute you ban a card you make it easier for you to ban cards again and again (we have a ban list now, just put it there and be done with it).

As has been stated multiple times, banning is the last resort option, and there are no plans to ban additional cards.

When you change the Eratas, you have to make sure everyone knows how the card has changed. Every Nationals I have attended, I have had to deal with Erata changes that I nor my team were aware of. This made our decks totally useless.

Can you provide specific examples? I've been to the last five National tournaments and I don't recall any major erratas being issued/changed during that time other than minor corrections to a couple cards from TEC, PC and CoW. I am also personally working on a downloadable errata document, which shouldn't be more than a page or two, that hosts can download and keep on hand for their tournaments (and even make copies to distribute).

Now on the note of Mayhem, It did exactly what it was supposed to do, cause MAYHEM. When you shuffle it, there was no guarantee you would get the cards you wanted. You might as well change the name because if you get to keep part of your hand then there is no Mayhem. The card has been (as another player told me) neutered.

The cards you get to keep are still random so Mayhem still has the potential to disrupt an opponent's plan as well as giving its holder the opportunity to gain a few extra cards if they get their hand low enough.

The liners have been a staple in a lot of my kids decks, (it's in three of mine). It actually hurts the deck builder 50% of the time because their deck has an extra Lost Soul. If it's buried, we have a way to get it back. I don't see what the Champions/Elders are afraid of. (And yes I stated that exactly right).

I play T2 primarily so I'm not afraid of Liner one bit. However, I respect the opinions of the majority of T1 players who have told me that Liner adds an unhealthy dynamic to the game.

When the Heroes in the Bible were faced with a challenge, they didn't run from it which is what we are doing. They knew God was there to help them. If a card scares you, make a card that counters it. Make a Dominant that can interrupt a Dominant. That way mayhem has a buffer. Make cards to stop them, NOT RULES.

You mean like this one?
 

Spoiler (hover to show)

Errata to "birth gender"

If Redemption got press for this, it would be nothing but free marketing.

More players for us!

Yeah this isn't so much a question of wow that's a tough ruling nor should a transgendered player take offense to choosing his identity as the gender he associates with (isn't that part of the point?). Why would the person think twice about the choice? It only becomes an issue if his/her opponent is a jerk and calls a judge. And technically, Saint of Virtue is actually more offensive to people who are non-binary.

Which is why I have proposed that we simply allow a player to choose SoV to be male or female, and not be dependent on their gender. I could also see an argument for genderless as the idea of a "Saint of Virtue" is symbolic in nature, but I'm not sure it's worth getting too involved in a discussion for a rarely used card.

Not opposed to any of the proposed changes (Gil's ban or either of The Guardians errata). I am just agreeing with Gil that there should be *some* change.

Chaos Orb is not the one that gets ripped. You're thinking of Chaos Confetti, which was printed in a literal joke set and was never legal in any real format to begin with.

Legend has it a player tore up Chaos Orb in a tournament to maximize its effectiveness - and this was ruled as legal. This led to the Chaos Confetti spoof card.

I think The Guardian's errata suggestion is excellent.

EmJayBee83's errata suggestion for Haman's Plot might drudge up other (admittedly) old arguments against CCG's in regards to gambling. Early on MTG had an Ante element that they worried might be construed as gambling, and therefore their tournaments potentially subject to legal restrictions. I'm thinking we don't want to go this direction either.

The liners have been a staple in a lot of my kids decks, (it's in three of mine). It actually hurts the deck builder 50% of the time because their deck has an extra Lost Soul. If it's buried, we have a way to get it back. I don't see what the Champions/Elders are afraid of. (And yes I stated that exactly right).

If you don't see the problem with the Liners then I would guess you don't spend much time in the competitive scene, in which case the bans do not affect you at all because you can still play them to your heart's content outside of official tournaments.[/quote]

Obviously you don't know who I am. It's ok. I try to be the silent one at Nats. (Although I didn't make it to Last years and will not be at this years).
And have been hosting for a few years now including East Central Regionals. Maybe you shouldn't assume things you do not know.