Author Topic: Tin XXIII Angels - Just Support Cards (Read 5950 times)

Gabe · « **on:** February 24, 2012, 02:50:14 AM »

Judges are weak.

Last season that is the response you heard if someone mentioned gold O.T. Heroes. They rely too much on Judges Seat. They're too slow. They lack an initiative character. Their battle winners aren't very good. The reasons varied depending on who you talk to, but the consensus was the same. Judges are weak.

When we decided to include Judges in tin XXIII we wanted to do what it takes to change that perspective. One way to improve a theme is to give it better support cards. In recent Redemption history, angels play a support role for humans. And it just so happens that angels show up a few times in the book of Judges.

Is there anyone who hasn't heard of the mighty Samson? In Judges 13 his birth was foretold by an angel who wouldn't share his name. Then there was Gideon, who despite his encounter with an angel under an oak tree in Judges 6, still required God to prove himself, not once but twice, with a wool fleece.

We started testing with one reprint and one new card:

Things started changing on these two right away. In testing we found that the cards we were adding for the Judges still didn't make them an offense to be reckoned with. We toyed with adding a draw 2 ability to Angel with the Secret Name but moved it to Jair instead. He gained the ability to exchange with the set aside area. His biggest boost is that he grants "cannot be negated" to all good Judges cards.

Angel Under the Oak underwent some big changes in this round of testing too. After running into issues against King of Tyrus we decided to add "cannot be interrupted". Granting protection to any Judge was a little too strong. Since he called Gideon, we limited the protection to just Gideon. We made special note to test the cannot be negated protection to ensure this didn't turn into another Thaddeus.

Late in this round of testing we also decide to make the Judges angels unique in the way that they interact with Judges. Since they never actually went into battle with the Judges we chose to have them both exchange for a Judge, instead of band. This gave Judges the added benefit of having two ways to find the Hero they need for any situation. With this change the "cannot be interrupted" ability on Angel Under the Oak was modified to match the change we made to Angel with the Secret Name.

After these changes, here is what we were testing in round #2:

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2012, 02:50:40 AM »

During the third round of testing we continued to closely monitor Gideon's CBN protection. So far testing showed that it was good but not over the top, which was our goal. We decided just granting his ability "cannot be negated" was strong enough. Some modifications were also made to the locations Angel Under the Oak can exchange to.

It didn't seem right for Angel with the Secret Name to go to a Land of Bondage so we modified the locations he exchanges to as well. With the impact of the Sites from Disciples, we wanted to add some anti-Site cards in this set. To get past Nazareth he gained the ability to negate Sites. We also granted Site access to all Judges.

These are starting to look more like the finished product:

We were about half way through testing at this point and these two angels were working how we wanted them to now - empowering a Judges offense. There weren't any changes made to Angel Under the Oak this time around. Angel with the Secret Name received a minor change to better mirror his partner - exchange, help a specific story related Judge, do something that cannot be negated.

There was a conversation about what would happen when these angels were exchanged for a Judge in Judge's Seat.

This was the final change made to Angel with the Secret Name:

Judges were powerful enough now, but they were still pretty slow. We added the draw 2 ability to Angel Under the Oak. That was the final change made to this card:

If you've been around for a while you might have heard about small oversights between the set design, the graphic work and the printer. They are usually minor but occasionally they have a bigger impact. Seeker of the Lost received the same verse as Soldier of God instead of the Luke reference she was intended to have. Eli the Priest was supposed to be gold/teal instead of just gold in Rock of Ages tin XXVIII. Philetus was supposed to be a 5/6 in Disciples.

With this set Rob welcomed a couple elders who had the proper software to proof the graphics before they went to the printer. The only major change that needed to be made was this:

Did you catch the error?

I imagine an angel didn't foretell your birth. And you probably haven't had an angel come tell you that God has a special calling for your life. He has sent a far superior messenger to rescue you and I, to declare His love for us and to offer us a place in His Kingdom. Have you responded to the call?

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2012, 05:05:10 AM »

Gabe, this is awesome! I loved reading this, and I'm sure there will be plenty of others that will do the same. I've always been interested in the process of creating cards, so this was very enlightening!

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2012, 07:18:23 AM »

Dude...what happened to the steel honeycomb border texture? That's way cooler than the usual bland, wispy border. Did its unimplementation have something to do with less readable titles?

TimMierz · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2012, 08:42:09 AM »

I'm glad you've made another of these. This insight is awesome.

The biggest part about what makes Oak so strong was just a last-minute revision, from how it seems here, and in fact it barely gets a mention in your article. You say "Judges were really slow" (was Samuel considered in isolation from judges?); did that portion of things get adequate testing? Note: I have barely seen any of these decks, but I don't play with or against top decks very often.

While it's fun to see different decks than last year (which as I understand is one major goal of new Redemption set design), it's also good if the new decks contain different cards from each other

Also, I'm glad that we didn't have Angel with Secret the Name. So many little errors have crept up over the years, I'm happy that Cactus has been more aggressive with proofreading. I remember how disappointed I was with Namaan/Naaman. Keep up the good work on that front.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:25:15 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 24, 2012, 07:18:23 AM

Dude...what happened to the steel honeycomb border texture? That's way cooler than the usual bland, wispy border. Did its unimplementation have something to do with less readable titles?

I'm not exactly sure why that one has never been used. It's from Cactus' card borders but has obviously never been printed on a card.

Quote from: TimMierz on February 24, 2012, 08:42:09 AM

The biggest part about what makes Oak so strong was just a last-minute revision, from how it seems here, and in fact it barely gets a mention in your article. You say "Judges were really slow" (was Samuel considered in isolation from judges?); did that portion of things get adequate testing? Note: I have barely seen any of these decks, but I don't play with or against top decks very often. :0

Great question, Tim. I realized after I posted my article that I made it look like that change took place at the last minute but I was too tired to come back and fix it last night. I failed to mention that there were another 3-4 rounds of testing still after we made our final changes to these angels. We didn't feel it necessary to make any modifications to them the whole second half of testing.

Samuel was added to the set just shortly before Angel Under the Oak received the draw 2 ability. Prior to Samuel we tried a dual affiliation (gold/black) Gibeonite Treaty and a card called When Judges Ruled, but they didn't work out the way we wanted them to. Samuel isn't all that great in a straight Judges deck. He requires the addition of some non-Judge Heroes to be worth while. So yes, he was considered in isolation from the Judges. We had some very fast Samuel decks when we were testing. Samuel was neutered a bit as a result.

browarod · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:41:05 AM »

Another great article Gabe, excellent work! The insight into the creative process for you guys is something that I find extremely interesting.

By the way, if you ever need a proofreader who's also good at card grammar-ish things, I'm always available.

TimMierz · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:43:15 AM »

Thanks for the response. It's good that it wasn't just a 13th hour change to make a card cooler without seeing how it would affect the game. Although I'm surprised that the Oak/Samuel connection wasn't seen as an issue.

But I guess part of it is, what is the overall goal of a new set? It's been said that strengthening little-used cards to "make every card useful" is one goal (and hey, Gideon and King Saul are seeing the light of day, not an easy proposition). Counters to the strongest strategies are another big part. I suppose that another way to make the players happy though is to give them more of what they want. There are a lot of players who find it fun to just plow through their deck. I'm not one of those people, but there is certainly a large base of speed lovers. For many kids, receiving more ingredients used to make speed is a wonderful experience. In reading some Making Magic articles (by the Magic the Gathering head designers, very well written even though I don't play that game), I've learned that part of a successful card set is giving people what they want. I suppose that has been done.

A gold and black Gibeonite Treaty? I'm wondering what's Gold about it. Right now evil Gold just deals with Herod and Egyptians, and from what I know about the Treaty, it was an act of deception by the Gibeonites against Joshua and the Israelites. Were you working with an older gold theme of Lies (which is more of Crimson's old thing anyways)?

And personally, I think the hex pattern looks awful, but that's just me.

browarod · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:49:14 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on February 24, 2012, 09:43:15 AM

A gold and black Gibeonite Treaty? I'm wondering what's Gold about it. Right now evil Gold just deals with Herod and Egyptians, and from what I know about the Treaty, it was an act of deception by the Gibeonites against Joshua and the Israelites. Were you working with an older gold theme of Lies (which is more of Crimson's old thing anyways)?

Maybe he meant good gold? It seems like something that would make an interesting dual alignment card.

TimMierz · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:52:25 AM »

Quote from: browarod on February 24, 2012, 09:49:14 AM

Quote from: TimMierz on February 24, 2012, 09:43:15 AM
A gold and black Gibeonite Treaty? I'm wondering what's Gold about it. Right now evil Gold just deals with Herod and Egyptians, and from what I know about the Treaty, it was an act of deception by the Gibeonites against Joshua and the Israelites. Were you working with an older gold theme of Lies (which is more of Crimson's old thing anyways)?
Maybe he meant good gold? It seems like something that would make an interesting dual alignment card.

Oh, that makes more sense! Matching Joshua's brigade and all. Yeah, that might've been interesting to see, but I guess things don't always pan out like that. With the little I've played with the newest cards, I forgot that there were the good 'n' evil cards.

Arrthoa · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2012, 10:27:14 AM »

To bad it didn't get released. Also get article Gabe, I liked this one better than the Joseph article. The funny thing too is that I prefer Genesis over Judges.

Dario Dante · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:09:27 PM »

Can you use Christian Martyr on Gideon in Battle. Because in a Tourney I was told by the other player you can't.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:11:35 PM »

Quote from: Rockyaacdtm on February 27, 2012, 05:09:27 PM

Can you use Christian Martyr on Gideon in Battle. Because in a Tourney I was told by the other player you can't.

If he is protected via Angel Under the Oak's ability, then no, he can't be discarded by Christian Martyr.

lp670sv · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:17:53 PM »

When using Angel Under the Oak's ability, he's completely bullet proof. Ask Jonathan Greeson why that's so frustrating

(He used Grapes to try and block me, unintentionally handing me a lost soul.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:26:29 PM »

What then counters Gid's protection in battle outside of Stone of Thebez?

EDIT: Ok Gib Trick, Wonders Forgotten, or forgotten history would work I guess.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:28:29 PM »

Stopping the Angel from entering battle in the first place.

You can also get successful blocks against him in a number of ways, albeit while leaving him alive.

Red Wing · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:29:07 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on February 27, 2012, 05:26:29 PM

What then counters Gid's protection outside of Stone of Thebez?

Trembling Demon + HoH, DoU, SSS, Uzzah, Failed Objective, and Sites. You can also stalemate him with a higher numbered character.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:31:19 PM »

Ok fair enough, I guess I didn't really think the whole thing through. I'll just block with KoT when Gideon makes an RA then.

Red Wing · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:34:43 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on February 27, 2012, 05:31:19 PM

Ok fair enough, I guess I didn't really think the whole thing through. I'll just block with KoT when Gideon makes an RA then.

Yep, just watch out for Ehud's Dagger, Deb's Directive, and Samuel's Edict.

lp670sv · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:37:32 PM »

Yeah your best best against Gideon would be initiative guy + forgotten history or those types of enhancements.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2012, 06:21:53 PM »

Or drop a millstone on his head, that works too.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2012, 06:49:34 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on February 27, 2012, 05:17:53 PM

When using Angel Under the Oak's ability, he's completely bullet proof. Ask Jonathan Greeson why that's so frustrating (He used Grapes to try and block me, unintentionally handing me a lost soul.

Greeson made a mistake??

Nice article, and it's neat to see someone other than me pushing Making Magic.

lp670sv · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2012, 06:54:20 PM »

That's how I came within SOG/NJ of winning teams. Stupid Broken Cisterns

Gabe · « **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2012, 12:08:48 AM »

I haven't read Making Magic for many years but a long time ago I used to read it weekly. I won't lie, it was part of the inspiration for writing these.

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Author Topic: Tin XXIII Angels - Just Support Cards (Read 5950 times)

browarod

browarod

TheHobbit13