Author Topic: The Persecuted Church - Master List (Read 49760 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #125 on:** June 29, 2015, 05:14:32 PM »

I don't think the ability is worded bad its just fine but looks a little interesting with the colon
The Maltese Viper

If blocking from hand paralyze and poison a hero in territory. Otherwise decrease a hero in territory 0/2. Cannot be negated.

That's 20 words compared to 28

Its less of a difference if you have to clarify poison but I am assuming poison will be a keyword soon?

Redoubter · « **Reply #126 on:** June 29, 2015, 05:23:49 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on June 29, 2015, 05:14:32 PM

I don't think the ability is worded bad its just fine but looks a little interesting with the colon
The Maltese Viper

If blocking from hand paralyze and poison a hero in territory. Otherwise decrease a hero in territory 0/2. Cannot be negated.

That's 20 words compared to 28

Its less of a difference if you have to clarify poison but I am assuming poison will be a keyword soon?

The ability you have there does not indicate that it reduces the character 0/2 each upkeep as a result of that poison, which is why it is shorter. Since we already have 'instead' as a keyword, I think we should try to use that instead of 'otherwise' (longer as well) where we can.

Poison does have a definition in the current REG (under "Poison (Disease)").

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #127 on:** June 29, 2015, 05:50:12 PM »

It doesn't need to clarify if decrease 0/2 per turn is in the definition of poison. Either way it will still end up being a shorter ability. It doesn't really matter because cards are already going to print and the ability works fine. The only thing that looks off is the colon at the end of the line not to big of a deal.

So if you can send the set list to my inbox I will be happy to check for any unwanted colons

Isildur · « **Reply #128 on:** June 29, 2015, 05:51:06 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on June 29, 2015, 04:20:04 PM

I'm not sure what is so strange...instead is almost always at the end of a sentence. I guess the strange part is that you can "instead" your own ability on the same card, though I don't see that as being too much different then insteading an ability on a different card (such as when you use Wrath of Stan to send all of your angels to Chamber). The colon is used to signify that you decrease the Hero only whilst it is paralyzed, similar to how the ability on a placed card after the colon is only active whilst the card is placed.

As for Paralyze in general, we are making an effort to be very careful with how that ability is used. Because there are relatively few useful Healing cards (and almost all of them can be stopped very easily by CwD) putting a paralyze ability on a character that can block multiple times could be a quick way to result in an NPE, kind of the reverse of pre-block ignore, where a player has multiple characters that they cannot use. So that is why the paralyze part can only be used once unless some sort of trickeration is done to return it to your hand (for which there are a few options).

The instead isn't hard to understand its just hard to read. The way the card triggers just doesn't flow like any other card I've seen. I thought it was odd how a fairly weak card was worded like that...

What bugs me is the instead was used as a way of nerfing the ability which really isn't that strong in the first place.

Here's my take on Paralyzing. Paralyzing is strong but its not thaaaat strong of a ability. To be perfectly honest Discarding, Capturing and Removal from the game are all stronger and easier to use abilities in comparison to Paralyzing.

Look at it like this... a Paralyzed character can be removed from its "Paralyzed" status at annnny time all that needs to happen is you play a Heal card. On the other hand you cannot retrieve Removed characters from the game. Characters that have been captured pretty much only go back if you have a Shuffler soul or you play I am Redemption. Discarded characters are somewhat easier to get back but how many top tier these days actually use Chariots of Fire or any other method to get back Heroes?

I had to stop using my Paralyzing deck after Boston nats because of the popularity of that Disciples Covenant that heals. My ENTIRE deck banked on the fact my opponent didn't have the space for a single healing card. It was successful because no one bothered to tech against it. If Paralyzing reallllly becomes a problem people will tech their decks and plop in a Brass Serpent to call it a day.

Redoubter · « **Reply #129 on:** June 29, 2015, 06:10:39 PM »

One point about remove, capture, discard, etc. vs paralyze: Paralyze prevents you from playing a second one down. Yes, this is more of an issue in T2, but it is a critical one to consider. I can retrieve a character from my discard pile pretty easily (if it is a hero) and I can return captured characters with any number of cards (removal is indeed more permanent, but also restricted in use for that reason). With paralyze, that character is just...stuck, sitting in my territory, using up that unique identifier.

And as pointed out there are plenty of ways to stop the character being healed (CwD and Decree being the best) in basically every deck that doesn't include Peter (and even TC healers are limited by CwD).

It's not always for T1 that we have to consider the power of a card.

Quote from: TheHobbit on June 29, 2015, 05:50:12 PM

It doesn't need to clarify if decrease 0/2 per turn is in the definition of poison. Either way it will still end up being a shorter ability. It doesn't really matter because cards are already going to print and the ability works fine. The only thing that looks off is the colon at the end of the line not to big of a deal.

So if you can send the set list to my inbox I will be happy to check for any unwanted colons

It's not in the definition of poison how much the decrease is (or even that it is a decrease), you do have to specify that number explicitly (and that the poison decreases). It does need that clarification.

And while I can't share the set list currently, I will say that colons are things that we want to keep using on cards for explicitly tying together abilities

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #130 on:** June 29, 2015, 07:21:42 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on June 29, 2015, 04:20:04 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2015, 08:30:41 AM
Quote from: Isildur on June 28, 2015, 09:05:29 PM
Really though the card is worded needlessly complicated ... I still think the card should be rewritten ...

I agree with Isildur that Viper's ability is worded so strangely (with the colon, and with the word "instead" coming at the end of the sentence). Is it too late to try to simplify that?

I'm not sure what is so strange...

As Isildur stated, it's the colon after the word "instead" that is awkward. Any SA that is out of the ordinary is always met with, "Mr. Harmon, what does this mean?" Remember that I deal with 6th graders, so simpler is better.

The Guardian · « **Reply #131 on:** June 29, 2015, 11:13:22 PM »

Look on the bright side: you don't have to try explaining anything to CountFount... we usually have to do that when he visits Minnesota for a tournament...

browarod · « **Reply #132 on:** June 30, 2015, 09:30:02 AM »

A full preview today and a half preview.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #133 on:** June 30, 2015, 11:08:01 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2015, 07:21:42 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on June 29, 2015, 04:20:04 PM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2015, 08:30:41 AM
Quote from: Isildur on June 28, 2015, 09:05:29 PM
Really though the card is worded needlessly complicated ... I still think the card should be rewritten ...

I agree with Isildur that Viper's ability is worded so strangely (with the colon, and with the word "instead" coming at the end of the sentence). Is it too late to try to simplify that?

I'm not sure what is so strange...

As Isildur stated, it's the colon after the word "instead" that is awkward. Any SA that is out of the ordinary is always met with, "Mr. Harmon, what does this mean?" Remember that I deal with 6th graders, so simpler is better.

Understood. Writing abilities requires two separate balances: a card should be usable but not too powerful (which is the trickier and most important balancing act) but there is also a need to balance the ability length with ability clarity. Back before combos required a series of erratas to A New Beginning, it was explicitly clear exactly what it did, but the ability was absurdly long. The colon is something that was originally developed to replace "while it remains" to attempt to reduce the length of the abilities. In this and future cards, the colon will be used for other instant abilities that have a long term duration. For example, when a character is poisoned, it is an instant ability (the character was not poisoned and an instant later it is) however, it has a long term effect (the character remains poisoned). So in this case, the colon will replace the usual phrase "while it is poisoned". Of course, most of the time that phrase has been implied, but now it will be clear (hopefully, after awhile at least) that the decrease only occurs when it is poisoned.

The ultimate goal is to develop a wording system that will be consistent for all future cards, and to remove situations where there are five ways of saying the same thing. Usage of colons as described above is part of that system. It will probably take a bit of getting used to at the outset, but I think it will be a benefit to the game to have cards that are worded under a consistent system.

Gabe · « **Reply #134 on:** June 30, 2015, 12:25:30 PM »

At first, I wasn't a big fan of the colon use outside of "place" cards. But Jordan and Dayne convinced me that it's a good thing. It takes some getting used to, but once you know it's not confusing or difficult to understand.

Outside of the context of the entire Philippi theme, the first two previews might not appear very exciting. As the week goes on and the big picture comes into view, you may change your mind about them. Tomorrow's preview, Clement, will start to bring things to light.

browarod · « **Reply #135 on:** July 01, 2015, 09:44:19 AM »

In this corner, the beatstick in clay, Clement!

Red · « **Reply #136 on:** July 01, 2015, 09:50:27 AM »

You guys missed a Half-spoiler in RDT's article.

Arrthoa · « **Reply #137 on:** July 01, 2015, 10:02:21 AM »

Quote from: Red on July 01, 2015, 09:50:27 AM

You guys missed a Half-spoiler in RDT's article.

Where in the counter article? Or are you talking about the Clement one.?

Gabe · « **Reply #138 on:** July 01, 2015, 10:03:05 AM »

Quote from: Red on July 01, 2015, 09:50:27 AM

You guys missed a Half-spoiler in RDT's article.

Revolt? That was spoiled last week in another article.

browarod · « **Reply #139 on:** July 01, 2015, 10:03:49 AM »

Quote from: Red on July 01, 2015, 09:50:27 AM

You guys missed a Half-spoiler in RDT's article.

The 2 new previews from that article were posted. Revolt was also mentioned in the article but that had already been previewed in a previous article (you'll find it farther up on the list in the first post of this thread) if that's the one you're referring to.

*instaposted by Gabe*

Red · « **Reply #140 on:** July 01, 2015, 05:48:55 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 01, 2015, 10:03:05 AM

Quote from: Red on July 01, 2015, 09:50:27 AM
You guys missed a Half-spoiler in RDT's article.

Revolt? That was spoiled last week in another article.

Welllll, shows how little I pay attention!

browarod · « **Reply #141 on:** July 02, 2015, 09:39:02 AM »

We have TWO full previews today and a half preview. I want to just say I'm really liking the art choices so far on this set!

Josh · « **Reply #142 on:** July 02, 2015, 12:09:41 PM »

Clay is taking FBTN to a whole new level. Priscilla and Euodia can prevent OT enhancements, which is basically irrelevant to Clay but devastating to some OT evil themes. Both of these two heroes can be banded into battle CBI/CBN with other useful heroes (Priscilla and Syntyche). Clement is a classic FBTN hero, except that Philippi heroes like The Generous Givers can band to him. And Joy can make any of these Clay heroes + 7/0 and CBN.

Redoubter · « **Reply #143 on:** July 02, 2015, 01:01:52 PM »

We were taking a different look at FBTN generally with these newer heroes. With Clement, we made the restriction on the FBTN purposefully, so that you have to dedicate yourself to using just Philippi and Missionaries (the latter has to be watched due to the way gaining identifiers works), and it is actually really easy to turn off with conversion (shown during testing). We adjusted bands to limit who could band into battle generally (so that Syntyche and Clement could not get in a negate-all battle where the numbers kept getting bigger, for example), and avoided a 4-copy Generous banding chain ending with one of these characters.

However, while FBTN (or pseudo-FBTN) is very good, outside of Moses abuse we really aren't seeing any real dominance of large FBTN chains. Further, we continue to make more ways to punish big bands, that are CBN as well, at the same time as these characters coming out.

Hopefully this process, whereby characters don't just negate everything without a restriction, continues to be how these new cards are made when FBTN is to be used. Negating enhancements only (and particularly just one testament) still leaves a lot of options as far as EC abilities, and restrictions on the FBTN allows for 'outs' to the opponent besides just removing the character.

The Philippi theme is all about building each other up and banding together, and the way it was handled showed great promise in testing without being over the top.

kariusvega · « **Reply #144 on:** July 02, 2015, 01:39:54 PM »

really loving these clay fbtn options!! dreams come true with these!

Arrthoa · « **Reply #145 on:** July 02, 2015, 03:03:43 PM »

Wonder if we're getting a enhancement with the Philippians verse "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" this set that will increase your heroes by x/x based on the number of phillipi heroes in play/battle if you reveal SoG/a new dominant.

browarod · « **Reply #146 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:25:25 AM »

The last of the Philippi previews are out today.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #147 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:35:46 AM »

Don't you think Epap is a little over the top with side battle cards?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #148 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:40:17 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 03, 2015, 10:35:46 AM

Don't you think Epap is a little over the top with side battle cards?

Nope

I was really excited about this guy when we first looked at the list - His ability actually barely changed during PT. I built a deck that tried to abuse his Darius effect, and while I pulled it off a couple of times, it wasn't consistent enough that we were terribly worried about it. One thing that helps is that Clay doesn't have a side battle card, so you're going to be playing some kind of split-brigade idea, coupled with his condition for a missionary, the offence tends to get watered down pretty fast.

Gabe · « **Reply #149 on:** July 03, 2015, 11:05:55 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 03, 2015, 10:35:46 AM

Don't you think Epap is a little over the top with side battle cards?

"Epap" combos nicely with some of the clay green missionaries and Sword of the Lord. Combine that with a gray Pharisee or Roman defense so you can get CBN Paul's Belt. Recur Belt with EDITED BY R.O.S.E.S (oops, have we shown his ability yet?). Add DD for a side battle combo on defense with Idle Gossip. It makes for a strong, fun deck.

Someone might prove us wrong, but we didn't find any of that to be too strong, even combined together. There are a lot of situational combos there that just don't work all the time against other strong decks.

News:

Author Topic: The Persecuted Church - Master List (Read 49760 times)

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

browarod

browarod

browarod

browarod

kariusvega

browarod

TheHobbit13