Cactus Game Design Message Boards

            I couldn’t really find a good place to post this. We don’t really have a “News” forum to discuss new releases or even a “General Redemption” forum. So a mod can feel free to move this if they can find a better place. Bear with me, this is very long.
   In my estimation, and it would seem the opinion of most gamers, the glory days of the CCG are over. In the mid 90’s, the industry was deluged with a glut of subpar games that would clutter up the bargain bins of hobby stores for years to come. Although some games from this era were quality and did survive, a large percentage were an attempt to simply cash in on a fad. For gamers though, this was clearly an exciting new genre with a wealth of strategic options not available previously.
   By the late 90’s, many games, and even game companies, had gone belly up. The Pokemon craze gave new life to the industry though, and became the first ever CCG to outsell Magic. YuGiOh would later perform the same feat. By the mid 2000’s, even more game companies producing CCGs had folded, and so had many of the game magazines. The last remaining CCG magazine, Scrye, released its final issue earlier this year after several format changes (e.g., going from color to B&W) in an attempt to keep its head above water. Consumers simply aren’t buying into CCGs the way they used to.
   Now, to be fair, it is difficult to imagine a world where Magic won’t continue to release sets. But this is largely due to a fiercely loyal fan base. As someone once said, “the mark of a true fan is that he has more money than brains.” Certainly this type of loyalty has kept Redemption viable in these tough economic times as well.
         The bottom line is this: most gamers want to believe CCGs are a new genre, not just a passing fad, because we realize the unique strategic potential. At the same time, we can do math. CCGs cost scads more than even the most expensive board games, even including all the expansions. It’s funny how many people balk at shelling out $80 for a copy of Descent, but will spend $150 on the latest CCG set. The ability to nickel and dime yourself to death with $4 booster packs probably helps. But whether the consumer has gotten wiser, or the industry has simply presented alternatives, the days of obscene secondary market values and “Johnny Suitcase” seem to be ending. But how have other companies handled this?
                 Decipher has attempted a very peculiar marketing strategy with it’s latest CCG involving buying large boxes of cards instead of small packs, website only distribution, and a referral “pyramid scheme” format that would make Mary Kay proud. Fantasy Flight introduced the concept of an LCG, allowing players to buy a complete set of each expansion released, eliminating the random booster pack buying. Cactus Game Design (who?) released sets in tins which contained fixed cards, plus booster packs from previous sets, again allowing players to pick up complete sets, but also allowing them to break it into more manageable pieces, buying sections at a time. This, to me, was a brilliant move. Not just because the tins are marvelous for booster drafting, but also because they seemed to be making the same types of adaptation that the rest of the surviving CCG industry is doing.
              The notable exception here is Magic, with its aforementioned fiercely loyal fanbase, who continues to release sets at the breakneck pace of four a year, much as it has for years. Redemption certainly has some of that as well. Magic players don’t jump ship to the latest greatest game because they believe the original was the best and nothing will ever beat it. Redemption players don’t jump ship because we like the themes. Not to say that we would stick around if the game was terrible either, but that is largely what keeps us around. And of course, for Magic and Redemption players, the money we have invested already.
Now, this industry change simply cannot be players just now figuring out how to do math. Even from the early days of Magic, Black Lotuses (Loti?) were selling for hundreds of dollars. I believe that much of this change has come about due to alternatives. Blue Moon plays much like a CCG, but is merely expandable. Games like Heroscape give much the same deck building type experience without being strictly “collectible” (i.e., no randomization of purchases). Dominion, very popular with the CCG crowd, scratches the drafting itch very nicely for a mere $40 and is a quality enough game to have won this year’s Spiel De Jahres and be in the top 10 on Board Game Geek. Aside from playing into the investment and loyalty of the current fan base, how is a CCG to survive?

At tournaments it is the host's discretion to give out Redemption cash or boosters as prizes.  Therefore, you can get TexP with Redemption cash for winning tournaments.  Rob also announced that instead of a HT or CoF promo, the tournament winner cards will be random TexP cards.

There has been alot of discussion concerning this set on the boards already, I guess you missed it.  You have some good points, but this set helps newer players a ton.

And if you are concerned about the cost of the set, you can purchase a complete set from Ken for $90 right now, or $100 if you aren't one of the first 50 people to purchase a set.

Kirk

I think that the state of the "gameconomy" will have to wait for the state of the economy. I have the feeling that this decision was at least partially bottom-line driven. I would rather have this than nothing. Frankly, I would not have survived another tin distribution. It was new and exciting at first, but the glamour is gone.

Dropping the sticker price from $15 to $5 was another necessary economy-survival step, this time from the consumer's perspective. Most of my former playgroup in CT was under age 13. They could muster/earn the few dollars for booster packs. The tins were not big sellers.

This may not be the ideal distribution, but it's cheaper and it's different. I agree that foils are passe' in the general CCG arena, but for us they are novel and will bring great joy to our hearts, even if we end up discarding the card at the end of our turn to meet the eight-card limit. At least we can twist our hand in the light for one turn and bask in the glitter of glory.

BTW, your points were well presented, so I am certain Rob will take everything you have said to heart for future consideration.   

Responses, not necessarily point-by-point arguments or defenses, just adding my thoughts.  Most of what you say is opinion and/or conclusions drawn from what you've seen, so there's no real right or wrong to this topic.

1). Bear in mind that some of Cactus' moves are for their own financial stability as much as anything else.  Everybody wants to be innovative but there are times when that's a luxury you just don't have.  I think foils are a nice way to say "hey, we're stuck making a small set again until the economy levels off, but we can give you some shiny cards - which we've never done before - to reward your continued support".  YMMV on the intrinsic value of the foils but it's not like they've been marketed as an amazing new accomplishment for the game.  It just appeals to the FFG fan in all of us that likes shiny bits.

2). Many tournament hosts will probably give out Cactus Cash more and more for prizes and then just have the winner redeem them out of the merchandise on the table, rather than order prize packs.  In which case, the monetary value of the different kinds of packs ($3, $5, $10, $15) will translate directly.

3). Another trick that card games have done to stay afloat, which I didn't see mentioned, is to include gimmicky bits in with the cards.  Wiz Kids did that Pirates game, and then did a Star Wars version of it, where the cards come with those thick plastic punchout cards that you can make into 3-D models.  Bakugan has those little rolly balls that snap open into something looking a little bit like the creatures they play.  Like most attempts to breathe new life into an old fad, they don't seem to have taken.

There's no question the CCG is fading; it's lucky it didn't completely die ten years ago when the bottom fell out.  But now that it's been around for like 15 years, I think it's grown past a fad into a genre.  Just a niche genre but one that I don't think will ever go away completely.  I do think as a pure collectible, we won't see the likes of those again once the last of these first-generation games go away.  The complete sets like Decipher is selling is one possible avenue, but I think the pure card game is moving more towards a contained box with expansions, a la Dominion or Race for the Galaxy.  If there's a boat that Cactus has missed in keeping up with mainstream gaming, it's probably that.  But that said, I still consider their products superior within the scope of the Christian market they target.

Believe me, I would love to.  I've already been working on ways to pull out the good game that's hidden in Solomon's Temple.

The thing is, strategy board games were never a big seller for Cactus, compared to party games and relative to the cost to manufacture.  Board games aren't prohibitively expensive to produce (unless you're doing a FFG game ) but the fact that they went from stock wooden bits to plastic in the second printing of Canaan should illustrate that there is still some cost consideration that forces some sacrifices.

Personally, I'm a fan of pick-up-and-play games rich in theme, which is why I've slanted more towards card games recently than full-on board games (says the guy who wants to play Starcraft at pretty much every boardgamers club meeting).  In particular, I invite you to check out Slugfest Games; their games Red Dragon Inn and Kung-Fu Fighting are good examples of what I mean.  If we could come up with a game like that, which is fun, fast to learn, and plays in a short time, we might have something.

I expect Redemption to last a good long while yet, but I'd like to think there's some fuel to keep the Cactus motor running after that has gone.

I see Redemption as much a ministry as a card game, and I believe this is how Cactus sees it as well. This is in large part why I left the boards for a while. I don't care about people fighting on a card game board, but this is more than just a card game.

At Magic tournaments, the point is Magic. I really hate being there when I'm not actually playing for so many reasons:

-First of all, let's face it, while Redemption is a CCG and therefore inherently nerdy, we have a higher-than-usual population of cool people per capita compared to other games, and therefore our tournaments tend to smell better. It may be a small thing, but I think it important.

-Because of the aforementioned "more normal" people, the atmosphere of the tournament itself is less stiflingly geeky and more refreshingly nerdy. I'd liken the difference to the difference between an animecon with Leonard Nemoy as a special guest and the local Young Republicans meeting. The latter is still quite nerdy, but not overwhelmingly so.

-At Redemption tournaments, I have something in common with most if not all the other attendees other than the game at hand.

-Because it's a Christian card game, there tends to be less anger and bitterness around.

-Finally and most importantly, as a culmination of the factors aforementioned and others, Redemption offers a supply of friends. I never make new friends at Magic tournaments. Everyone there views me as an enemy and I reciprocate. Also, they smell bad. But I've yet to go to a Redemption tournament without either making a new friend or strengthening an existing friendship. So much so in one case that Kirk came down to Tennessee for a couple of days just to chill, and I seriously considered blowing most of my money and traveling today in spite of exhaustion to EC tournament largely to hang out with him.

Redemption can't be treated as just another CCG, but I agree with your points as far as it still is one.

Funny you should say that, Chewbacca was at Origins this year.  The real Chewbacca.  Peter Mayhew.

Another great example that Redemption players are still a bit nerdy. I'm not saying I wouldn't of been SUPER EXCITED to see the real Chewbacca, because I would of been, just saying good example.

And I too believe that redemption is different in alot of good ways and that is a key reason why it has not only lasted this long but still has hope to continue on.  I've been able to meet people like Scott Stamp and Ben Arp that had it not been for this game I would of never met.  Its helps bring Christians together in alot of different ways.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 10, 2009, 04:01:40 PM

I see Redemption as much a ministry as a card game, and I believe this is how Cactus sees it as well.

Redemption can't be treated as just another CCG, but I agree with your points as far as it still is one.

Posts like this I'm sure make Rob smile. And me as well, actually. I think it's wonderful that Redemption is used not merely as a sanitized version of something the world values, but as a real and powerful ministry tool. I felt the same way reading over the thread about people's favorite artwork; people were saying they were actually moved by certain pictures, not just that they looked cool.

However, Redemption could be just as much of a ministry tool even if Cactus never printed another card. It wouldn't stop me from playing. But it would make me sad. And that is what I am concerned about. I have a bachelor's degree in marketing as well, and trust me, companies that say "I just don't have enough money for marketing" and ignore industry trends are asking for trouble. Just because Redemption is a ministry tool, doesn't mean you can ignore the financial aspect. Even if Cactus was a non-profit (which they aren't) you can't ignore the financial aspect. Planning ahead isn't lack of faith. I'm just pointing out that I see this decision as worrisome given the current state of CCGs. In my opinion, Cactus doesn't have enough money NOT to market. I was introduced to the game through a magazine ad. I called the number for more information and they sent me some promo cards. By the time I saw it sitting in those shiny blue packs on a Family Bookstore shelf, I knew I was going to be a Redemption Player. And it was Cactus' marketing that made that happen. The gameplay and themes may have kept me there, but they aren't what GOT me there, if you follow me.

Oh, I follow you! I just don't want to say "Cactus is making mistake X" because I don't know Rob that well, and I really don't know what they are doing behind the curtain. (I was told to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain). It seems they market in small bursts, and rely mostly on word of mouth and our fanaticism!
I've been in no less than three Christian bookstores (and several times in one) where I had to point out to the sales staff where the cards were, and what they were for!!! This is SO INFURIATING!!!!!! It's like they are too busy listening to Point of Grace to want to reach kids and make some money. I even e-mailed the people at Family Christian Bookstores to complain that Redemption is never featured in their mailer catalog. No response. OY! That's my rant.
I really want to start a game store that is also a youthy hangout place. With booster pack/ starter deck/ single card vending machines and those nice big round poker tables with the felt tops!

In general, Christian book stores are dying. There's a new market that will rise with the economy, and Family and Lifeway will miss it.

Well, I don't think there should be a Christian subculture where you could have Christian everything and only drink milk from a Christian cow, and never even know anyone that isn't a Christian! How do you reach the world, if you have no unsaved friends? But, what is your take on this? Please explain further

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 11, 2009, 01:53:28 PM

In general, Christian book stores are dying. There's a new market that will rise with the economy, and Family and Lifeway will miss it.

Well, I don't think there should be a Christian subculture where you could have Christian everything and only drink milk from a Christian cow, and never even know anyone that isn't a Christian! How do you reach the world, if you have no unsaved friends? But, what is your take on this? Please explain further

I am disgusted at the complete rip offs that "Christan merchandise" sells.  Let's take the "Got Milk" logo but instead of milk, say "Got God".  Let's take the Intel Inside logo but say Christ Inside.  What happened to the God given gift of creativity?  When I was in high school, the Christian shirts were very creative and I wore them all the time.  Now I see that they are mainly rip offs of popular logos.  There was also a Christian comedian who had some "Christian" pepper spray.  I wish the heads of these merchandise productions would stop focusing on the money/imitating the world (Testi-mints anyone   ) and come up with original ideas that are pleasing to God

Quote from: metalpsalm on July 11, 2009, 02:14:38 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 11, 2009, 01:53:28 PM

In general, Christian book stores are dying. There's a new market that will rise with the economy, and Family and Lifeway will miss it.

Well, I don't think there should be a Christian subculture where you could have Christian everything and only drink milk from a Christian cow, and never even know anyone that isn't a Christian! How do you reach the world, if you have no unsaved friends? But, what is your take on this? Please explain further

I am disgusted at the complete rip offs that "Christan merchandise" sells.  Let's take the "Got Milk" logo but instead of milk, say "Got God".  Let's take the Intel Inside logo but say Christ Inside.  What happened to the God given gift of creativity?  When I was in high school, the Christian shirts were very creative and I wore them all the time.  Now I see that they are mainly rip offs of popular logos.  There was also a Christian comedian who had some "Christian" pepper spray.  I wish the heads of these merchandise productions would stop focusing on the money/imitating the world (Testi-mints anyone   ) and come up with original ideas that are pleasing to God

My brother keeps me up to date on the dizzying array of "Prayer of Jabez" products. Wow. We get quite a laugh out of it

Josiah,

As someone in your playgroup and a fellow player, I agree with almost all your points. However, the idea of Redemption has a ministry is the reason for this set, so I can't fully support your thoughts. While it may not be the most intelligent thing to do marketing wise, it's following a recent trend (in my opinion for the better) from Cactus. They're slowly making it easier to be competitve in tournaments faster than every other CCG out there. While some say this is bad, I think it's great. At NE Regionals this weekend, a kid got 17/33, winning 3/6 games, having played for 5 days. Why? Because he liked it, invested in a Tin or Two, and had a decent deck. He's going to keep playing because he had a good expirience. Unlike Magic, for those people who want to be good at Redemption, you don't have to shell out massive amounts of cash for cards. You can easily build a competitive deck for around 60-75 dollars (rough estimate for some tins and boosters). That's so much lower than any other CCG, excluding defuncts like Harry Potter  . Becasue this is true, Redemption is more excessible to more people faster who get hooked for life because they feel like they always have a chance from the beginning. It took me awhile to get my feet under me in 2004 against you guys, but nowadays, you can easily get up to speed fairly fast. It's good for the game overall in my opinion.

Alex

How many of the older cards do you REALLY need to stay competitive, and how expensive is it REALLY to get some of those old singles?