Cactus Game Design Message Boards

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If you are the one being targeted and you are against table talk, recognize that you are obviously in the minority trying to convince the majority to play differently, and instead, start table talking yourself.

Completely disagree. If someone is about to block me with one card (i.e. has the EC in hand and is moving it towards the Field of Battle) and someone else blurts out "No! Use your other guy!" you can be assured that I am not going to let that fly. That is wrong and should not be tolerated in a tournament game. Table talk is useful in games being played for fun so that inexperienced players can learn what cards are best for different situations, but in a tournament game there should be no "coaching" unless a player asks "Am I allowed to make this play?" (Note that the previous question is different from "Would this be the best play?").

OK, real example...

At the last NHLC local Jayden Alstad and I were playing booster with two other players who basically didn't understand the differences between multi-player and two-player. Going around the table, clockwise, it was myself, Jayden, player A and player B, with scores of 4-2-1-1. Jayden, myself, and Player B each had 1 LS available and no one could stop my offense. It is Player A's turn and he decides to make an RA against me. I basically tell him that that is a silly play, and both Jayden and I explain why it is a bad play and how he should approach it. So Player A re-rescues against Player B who gives him a lost soul. Player B attacks Jayden who gives him a lost soul, and now the score is 4-2-2-2 with my turn up and no ls available for the win.

The upsides are that the game was extended and made much more enjoyable for everyone (I think the final score was something like 5-4-3-3). More importantly Player A gained real in tournament experience with multi-player strategy, which will up the overall play level of the entire play group. The downsides are that this was an official tournament and I most certainly did engage in the most egregious "coaching" form of table talk whose sole result was to influence the actions of another player.

Would I have done this at a Regional tournament--no. Would I have done this if Jayden were the player possibly going for the win on his next turn--no. Would I have done this if Player A was an experienced player--no. BUT...if the same situation (local tournament + the table talk only hurts me + good teaching moment) were to arise again, I would probably do the same thing. Given the positives that came out of it, I really can't make myself feel all that badly about this.

Going around the table, clockwise, it was myself, Jayden, player A and player B, with scores of 4-2-1-1. Jayden, myself, and Player B each had 1 LS available and no one could stop my offense. It is Player A's turn and he decides to make an RA against me. I basically tell him that that is a silly play, and both Jayden and I explain why it is a bad play and how he should approach it. So Player A re-rescues against Player B who gives him a lost soul. Player B attacks Jayden who gives him a lost soul, and now the score is 4-2-2-2 with my turn up and no ls available for the win.

I actually have no problem with this situation at all.  Many inexperienced players don't get the whole idea that if you take the LS that is available to your opponent, that it gives 1 less for them to rescue, and thus an offensive move is actually a defensive move.  Teaching this to them in a tournament setting is a kind thing to do.  I wouldn't even mind if I had been the person at 4 and someone else had recommended that they take a LS away that was available to me.  I want to win multi-player games because people ran out of ways to stop me, not because some noob played poorly.  There's no feeling of accomplishment in a hollow victory.

Just one follow-up (since others have already responded I'll post separately so it doesn't get lost)...

Re-reading what I wrote and how others have responded I just want to make it clear that my reply was not intended as a slam at Justin. Having sat at tables with him, I recognize that he frequently is the target of a lot of cheap play. So much so that it leads me to make joking table talk of the form "If you have martyr you should play it, because Justin can't get #5 if you don't give him #1." The grace with which he handles these types of situations is a credit to him and a blessing to the players who get an opportunity to learn from him how a champion carries himself.

I was using Justin's post as a spring-board to point out that sometimes even the most egregious table talk can have its place--nothing more.



 

Just one follow-up (since others have already responded I'll post separately so it doesn't get lost)...

Re-reading what I wrote and how others have responded I just want to make it clear that my reply was not intended as a slam at Justin. Having sat at tables with him, I recognize that he frequently is the target of a lot of cheap play. So much so that it leads me to make joking table talk of the form "If you have martyr you should play it, because Justin can't get #5 if you don't give him #1." The grace with which he handles these types of situations is a credit to him and a blessing to the players who get an opportunity to learn from him how a champion carries himself.

I was using Justin's post as a spring-board to point out that sometimes even the most egregious table talk can have its place--nothing more.

I was curious how he took it.  I don't handle unjust actions nearly so well.  I need to learn more patience and often people feel compelled to teach it to me in multi.

Thus, the creation of my signature after one particular regionals in which I was beaten up on in all the multi categories I had played in at every single table.


Goooossfrabaaaaahhhhh 

So are those of you who are opposed to table talk only opposed to the verbal or does it also include the non-verbal (i.e. Justin's puppy dog eyes)?

Is texting another player in Multi against the rules? 

Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 22, 2011, 12:29:16 PM

Is texting another player in Multi against the rules? 

Depends on the Service Provider

Because anything other than Verizon won't show up until after the game anyway...

Quote from: The Guardian on April 22, 2011, 12:10:06 PM

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Protect Justin!

Craig, I'm gonna remind you that you said that next time we're in a T2 MP game together.  

He'll need the reminder.  He's old and forgetful.

Stone Gabe! Protect Matt and Justin!

So my teammate and I can't invent our own language?  What about the fact that English is a living language, with new words being added all the time?  (So we couldn't use "lol" at Boston, but it's ok in MN?)

How is using code language different from different language? Both serve the same purpose. What if I invent a code for every word or phrase?

Ja, das ist recht.

Just remember, "Justin nicht gewinnen kann fünf verlorenen Seelen, wenn er nicht gewinnen Sie einen verlorenen Seele" is legal table talk in any language.

What you talking about Willis?

Bork Bork Rourke Spork