Author Topic: Simplicity or Balance? (Read 31799 times)

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #175 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:30:33 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:03:10 AM

Unfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all.

"You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or what, but those two comments directly contradict one another. You're basically saying, "Beginners don't matter - WE tell the new players what's easy to understand." I don't think the "it would be simpler" argument really carries any weight here. Either way would be extremely easy to explain, and really isn't an issue one way or the other. I really, really think anyone who's trying to present it as an argument (for either side) is making a mountain out of a molehill.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #176 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:34:24 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:30:33 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:03:10 AM
Unfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all.

"You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or what, but those two comments directly contradict one another. You're basically saying, "Beginners don't matter - WE tell the new players what's easy to understand." I don't think the "it would be simpler" argument really carries any weight here. Either way would be extremely easy to explain, and really isn't an issue one way or the other. I really, really think anyone who's trying to present it as an argument (for either side) is making a mountain out of a molehill.

I've never had to explain to a beginner that you can't make a rescue attempt against your own souls. Some (not all) figure out that you can rescue your own on their own.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #177 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:44:28 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:34:24 AM

I've never had to explain to a beginner that you can't make a rescue attempt against your own souls.

I have.

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:34:24 AM

Some (not all) figure out that you can rescue your own on their own.

The "not all" is the key.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:30:33 AM

I'm not sure if you're trolling or what, but those two comments directly contradict one another. You're basically saying, "Beginners don't matter - WE tell the new players what's easy to understand." I don't think the "it would be simpler" argument really carries any weight here.

It doesn't carry any weight among the top players, and it never has. I have been on the boards for many years trying to weigh in on the beginning player's side because I have had so many "new player" groups. I have started new playgroups in four different states, so I see the same problems over and over again. But, whenever I bring those concerns up in these kinds of debates, they are quickly disregarded. I will admit that I find that frustrating, which is why I rarely post in these threads, other than to try to calm the negative talk with occasional jokes. But since the Elders want feedback, I'm going to post anyway.

The other type of player that needs representation is the player that is not as deep a thinker as the average Redemption player (who I would argue has an above average IQ). What is obvious to most is not obvious to all. The others need to be conisdered as well.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:03:10 AM

"You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.

I stand behind this statement because it applies to all players, not just the majority.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #178 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:03:10 AM

"You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.

Nuh uh. See, I can make statements like that too. You can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking. Again, this is making a mountain out of a molehill, but you can't make this blanket statement and assume that there won't be beginning players who won't get why it's not possible.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #179 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:50:24 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:44:28 AM

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:34:24 AM
I've never had to explain to a beginner that you can't make a rescue attempt against your own souls.

I have.

Must be the Florida water. Zing!

Though comparing New Yorkers to Floridians is like comparing apples to oranges.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #180 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:52:11 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AM

You can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking.

Again, you are a regular Redemption player, who typically has a higher IQ. You are not among the lower quartile.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AM

Again, this is making a mountain out of a molehill, but you can't make this blanket statement and assume that there won't be beginning players who won't get why it's not possible.

They won't ask why when the rulebook specifically says so, which is what we are talking about here - a rule change to be added to the new rulebook in starter decks.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #181 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:53:18 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:50:24 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:44:28 AM
Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:34:24 AM
I've never had to explain to a beginner that you can't make a rescue attempt against your own souls.

I have.
Must be the Florida water. Zing!

Though comparing New Yorkers to Floridians is like comparing apples to oranges.

The playgroup was in Connecticut, with players from New York.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #182 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:55:44 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:52:11 AM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AM
You can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking.

Again, you are a regular Redemption player, who typically has a higher IQ. You are not among the lower quartile.

So isn't he the sort of person Cactus should be focusing on?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #183 on:** October 15, 2011, 11:59:08 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:55:44 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:52:11 AM
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AM
You can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking.

Again, you are a regular Redemption player, who typically has a higher IQ. You are not among the lower quartile.
So isn't he the sort of person Cactus should be focusing on?

I would say "no," for the aforementioned reasons, but I realize that I am a minority in my opinion. If we cater only to the current players, and not consider the recruitment of new players, then Redemption will eventually fade away with the interests (and age) of the current Hall of Fame.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #184 on:** October 15, 2011, 12:03:40 PM »

Sorry, that's not what I meant. Shouldn't Cactus market (and design the game toward) people like Chris and I, given that we're the target audience?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #185 on:** October 15, 2011, 12:05:00 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:52:11 AM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AM
You can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking.

Again, you are a regular Redemption player, who typically has a higher IQ. You are not among the lower quartile.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AM
Again, this is making a mountain out of a molehill, but you can't make this blanket statement and assume that there won't be beginning players who won't get why it's not possible.

They won't ask why when the rulebook specifically says so, which is what we are talking about here - a rule change to be added to the new rulebook in starter decks.

You still can't make this blanket statement and assume it applies to everyone without an above average IQ. People with above average IQs are the ones that are going to stick around anyways.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #186 on:** October 15, 2011, 12:08:08 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 12:05:00 PM

People with above average IQs are the ones that are going to stick around anyways.

I disagree. The other players just don't go to major tournaments. They have more fun in the local setting where they have more fellowship.

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 12:03:40 PM

Sorry, that's not what I meant. Shouldn't Cactus market (and design the game toward) people like Chris and I, given that we're the target audience?

I understood what you meant. I am saying that you and Chris are not the target audience of a new Starter Deck set.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #187 on:** October 15, 2011, 12:13:05 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 12:08:08 PM

I disagree. The other players just don't go to major tournaments. They have more fun in the local setting where they have more fellowship.

In which case, it doesn't matter how they play Son of God and New Jerusalem because it will prove to be inconsequential to the community.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 12:08:08 PM

I understood what you meant. I am saying that you and Chris are not the target audience of a new Starter Deck set.

I actually prefer to be called sir.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #188 on:** October 15, 2011, 12:35:24 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 12:13:05 PM

In which case, it doesn't matter how they play Son of God and New Jerusalem because it will prove to be inconsequential to the community.

The community exists because of the grassroots recruitment. The Chronic Apathys of tomorrow are my primary concern.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 12:13:05 PM

I actually prefer to be called sir.

My apologies. Kittens and Sir are not the target audience of a new Starter Deck set.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #189 on:** October 15, 2011, 01:46:12 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 12:35:24 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 12:13:05 PM
In which case, it doesn't matter how they play Son of God and New Jerusalem because it will prove to be inconsequential to the community.

The community exists because of the grassroots recruitment. The Chronic Apathys of tomorrow are my primary concern.

If it's chronic, wouldn't they be apathetic today anyway?

lightningninja · « **Reply #190 on:** October 15, 2011, 02:04:09 PM »

YMT, have you really found that Sog/nj being able to rescue your own souls is more confusing than the proposed rule change for the majority of new players that you've taught? That's really interesting, and that's definitely being considered by the playtesters. That's why the ignore rule is also being considered. Almost all the experienced players hate it, but for the 70% of Redemption players across the nation who are not on the boards, or who do not frequent them, these rules are appreciated.

So, is that really the case with new players? They are stumbling on this? And then I'd also ask, do you think this rule would help or hurt them in gameplay?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #191 on:** October 15, 2011, 02:26:47 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:44:28 AM

It doesn't carry any weight among the top players, and it never has. I have been on the boards for many years trying to weigh in on the beginning player's side because I have had so many "new player" groups. I have started new playgroups in four different states, so I see the same problems over and over again. But, whenever I bring those concerns up in these kinds of debates, they are quickly disregarded.

Perhaps I'm being presumptuous to include myself in the "top player" category, but your perspective has always carried some weight with me. I too have a playgroup at a school which leads to a LOT of players going through the system over the years, and many of them are younger and lacking in game experience. I also see some of the same things that you refer to with kids who have to be TAUGHT that they can rescue their own LSs with SoG/NJ because they start off assuming that they can't.

It also is worth noting that the primary reason for this change was to weaken NJ, but the second reason talked about by Bryon is that it simplifies the game for players like you and I are talking about. In fact, there have been a lot of changes talked about recently that have been partially or even primarily motivated by trying to make the game simpler for new players. So please don't feel like your perspective has gone unheard or unheeded

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:50:24 AM

Though comparing New Yorkers to Floridians is like comparing apples to oranges.

I saw what you did there

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #192 on:** October 15, 2011, 02:49:24 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on October 15, 2011, 02:04:09 PM

YMT, have you really found that Sog/nj being able to rescue your own souls is more confusing than the proposed rule change for the majority of new players that you've taught? That's really interesting, and that's definitely being considered by the playtesters. That's why the ignore rule is also being considered. Almost all the experienced players hate it, but for the 70% of Redemption players across the nation who are not on the boards, or who do not frequent them, these rules are appreciated.

"Confusing" is not the best word. It's like the Prof just said... players need to be taught that it is OK. They do not generally assume that they can rescue their own LS since they normally cannot in battle.

FTR, I still support the Ignore rule change because of the impact on new players learning the game.

Quote from: lightningninja on October 15, 2011, 02:04:09 PM

So, is that really the case with new players? They are stumbling on this? And then I'd also ask, do you think this rule would help or hurt them in gameplay?

In local gameplay, it will not make a big difference. As far as new players in major tournaments, being able to use SoG/NJ on their own LSs is the least of their worries. This rule would at least buy them time to get their SoG/NJ so they can lose 5-2 in 45 minutes rather than 5-0 in 10 minutes. Psychologically speaking, if you are playing a game whose premise is to win Lost Souls, but you leave a game having rescued none, then you will become disheartened quickly. That is one of the reasons that I do not use Falling Away against new players. They need the game to end with something in their Land of Redemption. It's kind of like going to a baseball game and getting a foul ball that just drops in your lap. You didn't really do anything special, you just got lucky (like drawing your SoG). But, even if your team loses the baseball game, you still leave happy because you got that ball. In fact, if it was a playoff game and a superstar hit the ball, then it will be a day you never forget (i.e. playing Gabe at Nats and getting 2 Lost Souls against him).

katedid · « **Reply #193 on:** October 15, 2011, 03:04:34 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 02:49:24 PM

[
Quote from: lightningninja on October 15, 2011, 02:04:09 PM
So, is that really the case with new players? They are stumbling on this? And then I'd also ask, do you think this rule would help or hurt them in gameplay?

In local gameplay, it will not make a big difference. As far as new players in major tournaments, being able to use SoG/NJ on their own LSs is the least of their worries. This rule would at least buy them time to get their SoG/NJ so they can lose 5-2 in 45 minutes rather than 5-0 in 10 minutes. Psychologically speaking, if you are playing a game whose premise is to win Lost Souls, but you leave a game having rescued none, then you will become disheartened quickly. That is one of the reasons that I do not use Falling Away against new players. They need the game to end with something in their Land of Redemption. It's kind of like going to a baseball game and getting a foul ball that just drops in your lap. You didn't really do anything special, you just got lucky (like drawing your SoG). But, even if your team loses the baseball game, you still leave happy because you got that ball. In fact, if it was a playoff game and a superstar hit the ball, then it will be a day you never forget (i.e. playing Gabe at Nats and getting 2 Lost Souls against him).

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Yes I know people will just bring up lost soul differential complaints but it's really really frustrating to end the majority of your games 5-0. I have been playing this game for about 6 months and have won over all 1 game last weekend 5-3, tied a game 3-3, and lost 2 games 5-4. The rest we are all totaly wipeouts for me, never getting to RA or play a defense.

lightningninja · « **Reply #194 on:** October 15, 2011, 03:52:14 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 02:49:24 PM

In local gameplay, it will not make a big difference. As far as new players in major tournaments, being able to use SoG/NJ on their own LSs is the least of their worries. This rule would at least buy them time to get their SoG/NJ so they can lose 5-2 in 45 minutes rather than 5-0 in 10 minutes. Psychologically speaking, if you are playing a game whose premise is to win Lost Souls, but you leave a game having rescued none, then you will become disheartened quickly. That is one of the reasons that I do not use Falling Away against new players. They need the game to end with something in their Land of Redemption. It's kind of like going to a baseball game and getting a foul ball that just drops in your lap. You didn't really do anything special, you just got lucky (like drawing your SoG). But, even if your team loses the baseball game, you still leave happy because you got that ball. In fact, if it was a playoff game and a superstar hit the ball, then it will be a day you never forget (i.e. playing Gabe at Nats and getting 2 Lost Souls against him).

Yeah, this is a really good point and a reason I support the rule. Despite the arguments that speed will just adjust, I do think this will allow at least a small stall for players to get a couple souls, or perhaps a comeback in a more evenly matched game.

As to the argument that we are the target audience, that's not true. The target audience is the new players that we need to recruit, so that the game can GROW. I mean, we're not going to leave the game because of this rule. In fact, everyone with speed decks is admitting that they will just adjust easily. If this rule can potentially make it easier and more satisfying to play the game, it's a success.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #195 on:** October 15, 2011, 04:00:42 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 14, 2011, 03:39:17 PM

Quote from: lightningninja on October 14, 2011, 03:18:44 PM
since speed is still king.

Speed will always be King in a game where you need to draw your cards to get them. Various things like counters or rule changes may make speed decks have to adapt, but the concept will always be there.

My argument is that this rule changes does nothing except force speed decks to adapt, and take away one of the few effective blocks that a slower/balanced deck will have vs. a powerhouse offense, which is using SoG/NJ on your own LS's.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #196 on:** October 15, 2011, 04:35:04 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on October 15, 2011, 03:52:14 PM

As to the argument that we are the target audience, that's not true. The target audience is the new players that we need to recruit, so that the game can GROW. I mean, we're not going to leave the game because of this rule. In fact, everyone with speed decks is admitting that they will just adjust easily. If this rule can potentially make it easier and more satisfying to play the game, it's a success.

It's quite clear that you don't know what a "target audience" is. When I say target audience, I mean a type of person. (Slightly nerdy, most likely Christian, enjoys TCG's, has disposable income, etc). These are the kind of people that Cactus wants to turn into new players. "New Players" is not really a target audience per se. Not only that, but a large portion of Cactus' Redemption sales come from current players. Growing the game is important, but we have no indication whatsoever that this will help, just theory.

One thing about your last sentence. That's entirely true, but we have not determined in any way, shape, or form that this rule change will do that.

lightningninja · « **Reply #197 on:** October 15, 2011, 05:12:59 PM »

Yes, I know what a target audience is. I was purposefully redefining the word, if you will. The point is, in order for Cactus to increase sales and Redemption to grow, they need new players to join, not players like us to like the game MORE. If this rule can do that, and yes it's VERY arguable, but this is what the heart of the debate comes down to, then it's a good rule, even if some players hate it and think it makes speed more powerful. I hope that makes sense. My last sentence should have said, "...make it easier and more satisfying for NEW players to play the game..." Sorry for the confusion.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #198 on:** October 15, 2011, 05:17:40 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 04:35:04 PM

It's quite clear that you don't know what a "target audience" is.

That was unnecessarily negative, as well as untrue. "Target audience" is a term that suggests who products are designed to entice. The general game of Redemption may have the target audience you suggest (although I disagree), but specific products like Starter Decks also have a target audience. They are typically intended to entice new players that are just starting to play or collect, hence the name. In Redemption, Starter Decks are also used for the Sealed Deck category, but that is the least populated category. This new set would bolster that category temporarily. But, in the long run, Starter Decks are intended for hosts to get new players started quickly. Therefore, new players are indeed the target audience.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #199 on:** October 15, 2011, 05:31:36 PM »

@lightningninja
1.) "Purposefully redfining" words does not help your case, especially on an internet forum, where you don't have tone and body language to back it up.
2.) If it's so arguable, where are all your points? The side for the rule has brought little factual proof to the table, claiming to have played lots of games, but never showing any real life examples.

@YMT
I'm frustrated with the lack of response from the people arguing the other side, thus my negativity. As to target audiences, lightningninja's use of the word was incorrect (new players aren't a target audience, they're a market segment), but yours is much better. Starter decks are absolutely designed for new players, and that's done fairly well. (I really like how well they match up against each other). However, what does that have to do with the rule change?

News:

Author Topic: Simplicity or Balance? (Read 31799 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy