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Unfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all. "You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:03:10 AMUnfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all. "You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.I'm not sure if you're trolling or what, but those two comments directly contradict one another. You're basically saying, "Beginners don't matter - WE tell the new players what's easy to understand." I don't think the "it would be simpler" argument really carries any weight here. Either way would be extremely easy to explain, and really isn't an issue one way or the other. I really, really think anyone who's trying to present it as an argument (for either side) is making a mountain out of a molehill.
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I've never had to explain to a beginner that you can't make a rescue attempt against your own souls.
Some (not all) figure out that you can rescue your own on their own.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or what, but those two comments directly contradict one another. You're basically saying, "Beginners don't matter - WE tell the new players what's easy to understand." I don't think the "it would be simpler" argument really carries any weight here.
"You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.
Quote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:34:24 AMI've never had to explain to a beginner that you can't make a rescue attempt against your own souls. I have.
You can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking.
Again, this is making a mountain out of a molehill, but you can't make this blanket statement and assume that there won't be beginning players who won't get why it's not possible.
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:44:28 AMQuote from: SomeKittens on October 15, 2011, 11:34:24 AMI've never had to explain to a beginner that you can't make a rescue attempt against your own souls. I have. Must be the Florida water. Zing!Though comparing New Yorkers to Floridians is like comparing apples to oranges.
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AMYou can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking. Again, you are a regular Redemption player, who typically has a higher IQ. You are not among the lower quartile.
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:52:11 AMQuote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AMYou can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking. Again, you are a regular Redemption player, who typically has a higher IQ. You are not among the lower quartile.So isn't he the sort of person Cactus should be focusing on?
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AMYou can that like it's a fact all you want, but I know that I picked up on SoG/NJ being used to rescue from my own territory right away, without even asking. Again, you are a regular Redemption player, who typically has a higher IQ. You are not among the lower quartile.Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 11:47:47 AMAgain, this is making a mountain out of a molehill, but you can't make this blanket statement and assume that there won't be beginning players who won't get why it's not possible.They won't ask why when the rulebook specifically says so, which is what we are talking about here - a rule change to be added to the new rulebook in starter decks.
People with above average IQs are the ones that are going to stick around anyways.
Sorry, that's not what I meant. Shouldn't Cactus market (and design the game toward) people like Chris and I, given that we're the target audience?
I disagree. The other players just don't go to major tournaments. They have more fun in the local setting where they have more fellowship.
I understood what you meant. I am saying that you and Chris are not the target audience of a new Starter Deck set.
In which case, it doesn't matter how they play Son of God and New Jerusalem because it will prove to be inconsequential to the community.
I actually prefer to be called sir.
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on October 15, 2011, 12:13:05 PMIn which case, it doesn't matter how they play Son of God and New Jerusalem because it will prove to be inconsequential to the community.The community exists because of the grassroots recruitment. The Chronic Apathys of tomorrow are my primary concern.
It doesn't carry any weight among the top players, and it never has. I have been on the boards for many years trying to weigh in on the beginning player's side because I have had so many "new player" groups. I have started new playgroups in four different states, so I see the same problems over and over again. But, whenever I bring those concerns up in these kinds of debates, they are quickly disregarded.
Though comparing New Yorkers to Floridians is like comparing apples to oranges.
YMT, have you really found that Sog/nj being able to rescue your own souls is more confusing than the proposed rule change for the majority of new players that you've taught? That's really interesting, and that's definitely being considered by the playtesters. That's why the ignore rule is also being considered. Almost all the experienced players hate it, but for the 70% of Redemption players across the nation who are not on the boards, or who do not frequent them, these rules are appreciated.
So, is that really the case with new players? They are stumbling on this? And then I'd also ask, do you think this rule would help or hurt them in gameplay?
[Quote from: lightningninja on October 15, 2011, 02:04:09 PMSo, is that really the case with new players? They are stumbling on this? And then I'd also ask, do you think this rule would help or hurt them in gameplay? In local gameplay, it will not make a big difference. As far as new players in major tournaments, being able to use SoG/NJ on their own LSs is the least of their worries. This rule would at least buy them time to get their SoG/NJ so they can lose 5-2 in 45 minutes rather than 5-0 in 10 minutes. Psychologically speaking, if you are playing a game whose premise is to win Lost Souls, but you leave a game having rescued none, then you will become disheartened quickly. That is one of the reasons that I do not use Falling Away against new players. They need the game to end with something in their Land of Redemption. It's kind of like going to a baseball game and getting a foul ball that just drops in your lap. You didn't really do anything special, you just got lucky (like drawing your SoG). But, even if your team loses the baseball game, you still leave happy because you got that ball. In fact, if it was a playoff game and a superstar hit the ball, then it will be a day you never forget (i.e. playing Gabe at Nats and getting 2 Lost Souls against him).
In local gameplay, it will not make a big difference. As far as new players in major tournaments, being able to use SoG/NJ on their own LSs is the least of their worries. This rule would at least buy them time to get their SoG/NJ so they can lose 5-2 in 45 minutes rather than 5-0 in 10 minutes. Psychologically speaking, if you are playing a game whose premise is to win Lost Souls, but you leave a game having rescued none, then you will become disheartened quickly. That is one of the reasons that I do not use Falling Away against new players. They need the game to end with something in their Land of Redemption. It's kind of like going to a baseball game and getting a foul ball that just drops in your lap. You didn't really do anything special, you just got lucky (like drawing your SoG). But, even if your team loses the baseball game, you still leave happy because you got that ball. In fact, if it was a playoff game and a superstar hit the ball, then it will be a day you never forget (i.e. playing Gabe at Nats and getting 2 Lost Souls against him).
Quote from: lightningninja on October 14, 2011, 03:18:44 PMsince speed is still king. Speed will always be King in a game where you need to draw your cards to get them. Various things like counters or rule changes may make speed decks have to adapt, but the concept will always be there.My argument is that this rule changes does nothing except force speed decks to adapt, and take away one of the few effective blocks that a slower/balanced deck will have vs. a powerhouse offense, which is using SoG/NJ on your own LS's.
since speed is still king.
As to the argument that we are the target audience, that's not true. The target audience is the new players that we need to recruit, so that the game can GROW. I mean, we're not going to leave the game because of this rule. In fact, everyone with speed decks is admitting that they will just adjust easily. If this rule can potentially make it easier and more satisfying to play the game, it's a success.
It's quite clear that you don't know what a "target audience" is.
