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Chronic apathy, great points. Here's a couple comments to consider.1. What about all the games with successful attempts at stopping speed? Of course, there are tons of games where speed is still great, but what about all the times that players have reported where speed IS stopped, or at least not as effective? I understand the argument that you'll want more speed to get out your lost soul generation, but wouldn't you agree there's another side to that coin that you have to be attacked to use most of that? Nazareth is not hard to get, after that you're basically down to evil strategies. A defense-heavy deck with little offense won't give you very many opportunities to block and give them ls to rescue.2. You talk about complaints about the rule. But how many complaints have there been about Samuel decks and TGT decks? Now whether or not this rule can stop them is another issue, and is what the above comment is talking about, but assuming it WOULD stop them, there are a lot more people frustrated at TGT than at this potential rule change.3. As to my own personal experiences, my fastest decks do get me frustrated with this rule. I have a LOT of soul generation, both on offense and defense, and I get frustrated because as fast as your deck is, I typically can't get 5 ls in my opponent's land of bondage by turn 3. Without this rule, it's relatively common to win a game in three turns.
Lastly, if you aren't going to at least pretend to consider our input when problems with the rule change do arise why are we being asked to test it in the first place? Why is it being play tested at all?
Quote from: lp670sv on October 14, 2011, 10:20:09 PMLastly, if you aren't going to at least pretend to consider our input when problems with the rule change do arise why are we being asked to test it in the first place? Why is it being play tested at all?I believe that was ROOT's choice, not any kind of official test.
What makes you think it is being disregarded?
Ah, so what you're saying is that it's nothing more than a rule change designed to hurt speed decks?
the vast majority of members said they would not want to see the rule applied this tournament season (and many of them not at all).
I believe that was ROOT's choice, not any kind of official test.
Quite the paraphrase.
I agree. Yeah lets all complain because our decks that are clearly op'd dont work! That seems to be the only complaint im hearing from a majority of the players every one else (except type 2 people) seem to be in support of the rule change.
I find it humorous that players keep going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on speculating about about a secondary benefit of the ruling. You don't think it will stop speed completely. Fine. I agree. I never said it would.The PRIMARY purpose was to take half the teeth out of NJ, which most players agree is too powerful in Type 1. Do all the players who oppose this ruling really want NJ to keep its current power level? Drop the secondary speed debate and answer that question.
Isildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.
Quote from: lightningninja on October 14, 2011, 11:35:35 PMIsildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.
Chronic apathy, great points. Here's a couple comments to consider.1. What about all the games with successful attempts at stopping speed? Of course, there are tons of games where speed is still great, but what about all the times that players have reported where speed IS stopped, or at least not as effective? I understand the argument that you'll want more speed to get out your lost soul generation, but wouldn't you agree there's another side to that coin that you have to be attacked to use most of that? Nazareth is not hard to get, after that you're basically down to evil strategies. A defense-heavy deck with little offense won't give you very many opportunities to block and give them ls to rescue.
2. You talk about complaints about the rule. But how many complaints have there been about Samuel decks and TGT decks? Now whether or not this rule can stop them is another issue, and is what the above comment is talking about, but assuming it WOULD stop them, there are a lot more people frustrated at TGT than at this potential rule change.
I think that this was due to putting the poll up there too soon before people had a chance to play enough games with the new rule to even know if they supported it. Without knowing, they felt like they had to vote against it. I suspect that if another poll is taken a month or 2 from now, that the results would be very different.
Quote from: lp670sv on October 14, 2011, 11:40:57 PMQuote from: lightningninja on October 14, 2011, 11:35:35 PMIsildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.He didn't say Isildur doesn't matter, he just said he doesn't count. Arithmetic was never his forte.
Oooh now you're twisting MY words. Making a step up. If individuals just keep up with these sarcastic points that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, then I'll lock the thread.
Quote from: lp670sv on October 14, 2011, 11:40:57 PMQuote from: lightningninja on October 14, 2011, 11:35:35 PMIsildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.Oooh now you're twisting MY words. Making a step up. If individuals just keep up with these sarcastic points that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, then I'll lock the thread.
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Splashing in a soul generation defense is something that a lot of speed decks already do. I cited Genesis before and I'll bring it up again. TAS and Cupbearer both generate a soul, the latter unnegatably so. They both fit in very well with what is likely the fastest defense in the game - Gentyptians, which can't really be used effectively without the third fastest offense in the game (behind Disciples and Sam in all his forms): Genesis. If this rule would get implemented before the spring/summer tournament season rolls around, you're looking at Genesis taking a big leap and becoming potentially more used than Disciples were last year. At least right now we have two offenses in the proverbial "S tier". Should the rule be implemented, you're looking at only one being at the top.
Better still, try to break it. See if you can create a deck where the new rule makes a broken situation.
As for the Genesis thing, I don't see it. First of all, Genesis Egyptians can still be very competitive without Genesis offense. It just requires a couple extra defensive cars. YAY! Second of all, I definitely don't see it as being any more competitive with this rule. Only the defense gets a boost, and a minor one at that. Honestly, the best defense for soul generation is black canaanites. Egyptians only has the one card, plus Potipher's wife if you add battle winners, once again boosting speed. Without considering the defense, Genesis has Joseph before Pharoah, but other than that they are a searching offense that doesn't draw all that much and it stopped cold by Nazareth. I would see Disciples and TGTspeed getting bigger boosts than Genesis.
Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on October 14, 2011, 05:26:10 PMyou believe that NJ gets used defensively by 'Speed' players more often than balanced deck players. This is of course true. speed players by definition get their SoG/NJ combo faster than balanced deck players in general. Therefore they are able to use them defensively more often. Everyone uses that combo defensively if they can (unless there is a 2-liner involved or rare instances of FBN LS or shuffler - which is still a defensive move). And the speed play will be able to do it more often.
you believe that NJ gets used defensively by 'Speed' players more often than balanced deck players.
This thread is so long I'm not certain if this has been commented on, but literally every new or beginning player I know uses SOG/NJ defensively.
Unfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all. "You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 15, 2011, 11:03:10 AMUnfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all. "You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.Hyperbole is the best thing ever!