Author Topic: Simplicity or Balance?  (Read 31805 times)

Offline Red Wing

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2011, 09:42:35 PM »
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Chronic apathy, great points. Here's a couple comments to consider.

1. What about all the games with successful attempts at stopping speed? Of course, there are tons of games where speed is still great, but what about all the times that players have reported where speed IS stopped, or at least not as effective? I understand the argument that you'll want more speed to get out your lost soul generation, but wouldn't you agree there's another side to that coin that you have to be attacked to use most of that? Nazareth is not hard to get, after that you're basically down to evil strategies. A defense-heavy deck with little offense won't give you very many opportunities to block and give them ls to rescue.

2. You talk about complaints about the rule. But how many complaints have there been about Samuel decks and TGT decks? Now whether or not this rule can stop them is another issue, and is what the above comment is talking about, but assuming it WOULD stop them, there are a lot more people frustrated at TGT than at this potential rule change.

3. As to my own personal experiences, my fastest decks do get me frustrated with this rule. I have a LOT of soul generation, both on offense and defense, and I get frustrated because as fast as your deck is, I typically can't get 5 ls in my opponent's land of bondage by turn 3. Without this rule, it's relatively common to win a game in three turns.

I realize it's frustrating to have to wait for LSs to SoG/NJ for the win, but it's also very frustrating to lose in three turns. That doesn't make for a very fun game...
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lp670sv

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2011, 10:20:09 PM »
-1
Bryon I've been trying very hard not to come off as disrespectful, because I know you have the best interests of the game in mind but we are talking about things other than just the rule hurting NJ because the consequences of the rule are farther reaching than just "this nerfs NJ." Yeah, this rule does somewhat hurt NJ. But that's not the only thing that does. And making a rule like that because it accomplishes it's intended purpose, without considering the other potential problems, is how we end up with broken cards in the first place. As you are a play tester, I find it comical that you're disregarding the players feedback that goes against this rule. This is the point of play testing. I'm hoping you can see that. Lastly, if you aren't going to at least pretend to consider our input when problems with the rule change do arise why are we being asked to test it in the first place? Why is it being play tested at all?

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2011, 10:45:44 PM »
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Lastly, if you aren't going to at least pretend to consider our input when problems with the rule change do arise why are we being asked to test it in the first place? Why is it being play tested at all?
I believe that was ROOT's choice, not any kind of official test.
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lp670sv

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2011, 10:59:25 PM »
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Lastly, if you aren't going to at least pretend to consider our input when problems with the rule change do arise why are we being asked to test it in the first place? Why is it being play tested at all?
I believe that was ROOT's choice, not any kind of official test.

Point still remains. It's being playtested, and all negative feedback is being disregarded.

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2011, 11:02:36 PM »
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What makes you think it is being disregarded?
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lp670sv

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2011, 11:07:44 PM »
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What makes you think it is being disregarded?

I'm gonna go with the responses of anyone in this thread of anyone in this thread being first written off as "WAH MY SPEED DECK DOESN'T DOMINATE ANYMORE!" and then "The point was to nerf NJ, stop talking about other things"

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2011, 11:14:37 PM »
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Quite the paraphrase.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2011, 11:18:03 PM »
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Ah, so what you're saying is that it's nothing more than a rule change designed to hurt speed decks?
No, I freely admit that the main reason behind the rule was to decrease the power of NJ as Bryon has said.  My personal support for the rule is also enhanced by the fact that I think it will end up decreasing the monopoly of speed decks at the top of top tournaments.

the vast majority of members said they would not want to see the rule applied this tournament season (and many of them not at all).
I think that this was due to putting the poll up there too soon before people had a chance to play enough games with the new rule to even know if they supported it.  Without knowing, they felt like they had to vote against it.  I suspect that if another poll is taken a month or 2 from now, that the results would be very different.

I believe that was ROOT's choice, not any kind of official test.
This is correct.  ROOT leadership (currently me) decided to give this a test for a month because I was curious to get some real game feedback from players.  It is not an official test however, and Bryon didn't ask me to do it.  So you can put that one on me, not him :)

And the negative feedback is being considered.  Just because I'm arguing against the opposition doesn't mean that I'm not listening to it as well.

lp670sv

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2011, 11:34:03 PM »
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Quite the paraphrase.

I agree. Yeah lets all complain because our decks that are clearly op'd dont work! That seems to be the only complaint im hearing from a majority of the players every one else (except type 2 people) seem to be in support of the rule change.

I find it humorous that players keep going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on speculating about about a secondary benefit of the ruling.  You don't think it will stop speed completely.  Fine.  I agree.  I never said it would.

The PRIMARY purpose was to take half the teeth out of NJ, which most players agree is too powerful in Type 1.  Do all the players who oppose this ruling really want NJ to keep its current power level?  Drop the secondary speed debate and answer that question.

Quite the paraphrase indeed.

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #159 on: October 14, 2011, 11:35:35 PM »
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Isildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.
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lp670sv

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #160 on: October 14, 2011, 11:40:57 PM »
+2
Isildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.

You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #161 on: October 14, 2011, 11:47:05 PM »
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Isildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.

You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.
Oooh now you're twisting MY words. Making a step up. If individuals just keep up with these sarcastic points that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, then I'll lock the thread.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #162 on: October 14, 2011, 11:48:08 PM »
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Chronic apathy, great points. Here's a couple comments to consider.

1. What about all the games with successful attempts at stopping speed? Of course, there are tons of games where speed is still great, but what about all the times that players have reported where speed IS stopped, or at least not as effective? I understand the argument that you'll want more speed to get out your lost soul generation, but wouldn't you agree there's another side to that coin that you have to be attacked to use most of that? Nazareth is not hard to get, after that you're basically down to evil strategies. A defense-heavy deck with little offense won't give you very many opportunities to block and give them ls to rescue.

I'm not really familiar with any other CCGs, however, I would be willing to bet that at least a few of the ones that were able to put a stop to speed as the dominant strategy used some kind of overpowered card or cards to do it. Like, something to tune of RBD only maybe as a CBN protected fortress or something along those lines. The problem however, is that Redemption as a whole has a tendency to release counters to any effective cards. It would not surprise me, if such an overpowered anti-speed card were to be released, that in the set following it, there would be a healthy amount of CBN protected drawing. Thus, the cycle continues. The main point that people keep bringing up in support of this rule change is that, were it to be implemented, it would hurt speed. Many people are doubtful, and I feel I'm one of the few people who agree that it would hurt speed, but still don't want it implemented.

Splashing in a soul generation defense is something that a lot of speed decks already do. I cited Genesis before and I'll bring it up again. TAS and Cupbearer both generate a soul, the latter unnegatably so. They both fit in very well with what is likely the fastest defense in the game - Gentyptians, which can't really be used effectively without the third fastest offense in the game (behind Disciples and Sam in all his forms): Genesis. If this rule would get implemented before the spring/summer tournament season rolls around, you're looking at Genesis taking a big leap and becoming potentially more used than Disciples were last year. At least right now we have two offenses in the proverbial "S tier". Should the rule be implemented, you're looking at only one being at the top.

It's also worth noting that I love defense heavy decks. I've played several people in this thread with my 154 card heroless. It's my favorite deck to play, and I mourn that I'll never be able to play it in regular tournament play, due to it's tendency to take an hour before my opponent finally concedes (it's only finished a win twice - otherwise the opponent breaks through or concedes after they realize they won't be able too). Playing defense heavy is so fun to me, and I do find it quite sad that it's not as viable as it should be. In this week's ROOT game, I opted to take a chance and I played a defense heavy deck, a decision that was made in part because of the testing of this new rule. It was an Isaiah/Israelite Royalty deck. This deck has five heroes: Isaiah, King Hezekiah, both Seraphs, and Cherubim. Guess which hero got removed from the game during a rescue attempt on the first turn? I ultimately lost that game 4-5, because Son of God was literally the bottom card of my deck. Had I played a faster deck, even my normal Prophets deck (where the ratio of good/evil is reversed), I'd have easily pulled a win, due to my opponent not drawing heroes for 3/4 of the game. What I'm getting at here is that I'm as much a proponent of defense heavy as anyone else, and I wish it was more viable. However, I don't believe a rule change like this is the way to go about making defense heavy better.

I will be entirely the honest, the concept of Soul Hiding as a defensive strategy is extremely appealing. For the last couple years, I've toyed with the idea of making that sort of strategy, until the FBTN LS came out last year and forced me to abandon the idea. The idea of locking my opponent out without using sites, and merely using discard and protection is extremely appealing. While this ruling wouldn't that, Soul Stalling would certainly become a top-tier defense overnight. I like that aspect of the idea, however, I still can't condone the ruling as a whole.

Cont...

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #163 on: October 14, 2011, 11:48:57 PM »
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Quote
2. You talk about complaints about the rule. But how many complaints have there been about Samuel decks and TGT decks? Now whether or not this rule can stop them is another issue, and is what the above comment is talking about, but assuming it WOULD stop them, there are a lot more people frustrated at TGT than at this potential rule change.

I'm not sure that that's actually true. Just because more people might be really vocal about not liking certain strategies doesn't mean more people would prefer this rule to that. I'm not saying more people would rather have it one way or the other, because I don't really know, but that's a pretty bold statement without anything to back it up with. Personally, I hate Sam, I'm using an anti-meta deck right now, and I've vowed to never build a Sam deck this season. That said, I'd rather have every deck I face be some variant of Sam or Genesis or Disciples or TGT (this is, of course, how it already is) than see this rule put into effect (which would, as I noted, just mean that Genesis would overtake everything else).

I'm simply of the opinion that for all these problems people think this ruling would help fix, there are better ways to go about fixing them. Every single year I've been playing this game, I hear people complain about speed and how overpowered it is, and that includes the powers at be (Elders for the last year or so, and just general prominent members before that). Yet, every single year, cards like Fishing Boat, Matthew, and Samuel get released, and I just absolutely scratch my head over that. If speed is that big a problem, release a couple sets with no drawing at all. That could balance out speed so that it's not ridiculous anymore. Just look at Disciples for this year. Top tier? Yes. Overpowered? Not really, because Sam and Gen are just as strong.

What makes you think it is being disregarded?

I can kind of see where Alec is coming from here. Earlier in the thread, Bryon was pretty quick to disregard all the comments in the feedback thread as unimportant, due to our inexperience with the rule. I did very much feel like the comments made there, unless they supported the rule, were pretty much disregarded. I'm not going to make a big deal out of that, but that's definitely the way it came across early on in the thread, though it hasn't been that way for the last three or four pages.

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Darn it guys...

I think that this was due to putting the poll up there too soon before people had a chance to play enough games with the new rule to even know if they supported it.  Without knowing, they felt like they had to vote against it.  I suspect that if another poll is taken a month or 2 from now, that the results would be very different.

I don't think so. I think as of right now, the leaning is still heavily towards not liking the idea, and at this point, that isn't likely to change. In fact, I haven't heard of anyone changing their mind about the idea one way or the other, and if anyone has, I'd highly encourage them to post, explaining why (either they didn't like it at first but like it now, or vice versa). So far, I've only seen people become more and more entrenched in their viewpoints. In fact, I don't believe I've seen any of the powers at be post on the subject at all other than you and Bryon (as huge proponents of the idea) and Prof A on the other side of the debate. I might be missing these comments, but I just haven't seen anything else. I'm especially curious to see what Gabe (who uses speed as often as anyone else does) and Rob have to say about it, and what their leanings are.

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DARN IT GUYS!

Isildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.

You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.

Can this not turn into a petty debate that has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Pretty please? With sugar on top?

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The message exceeds the maximum allowed length (5000 characters).


GAH!

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....

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #164 on: October 14, 2011, 11:49:14 PM »
+3
Isildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.

You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.

He didn't say Isildur doesn't matter, he just said he doesn't count. Arithmetic was never his forte.
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lp670sv

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #165 on: October 14, 2011, 11:56:25 PM »
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Isildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.

You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.

He didn't say Isildur doesn't matter, he just said he doesn't count. Arithmetic was never his forte.

This made me laugh enough that I though it deserved a response instead of just a plus 1

Oooh now you're twisting MY words. Making a step up. If individuals just keep up with these sarcastic points that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, then I'll lock the thread.

You're the one who said he didn't count. I didn't edit your post. He isn't official so you said he didn't count. So if you're not official you don't count. How is that twisting anything?

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #166 on: October 14, 2011, 11:57:39 PM »
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Isildur doesn't count, he's not in any ways official.

You only matter if your a playtester. I'll have to write that down.
Oooh now you're twisting MY words. Making a step up. If individuals just keep up with these sarcastic points that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, then I'll lock the thread.
My guess is that lp670sv is getting sarcastic because he feels that's the only way to get his point across.  It'd help if you openly responded to his points instead of saying "oh, that doesn't count".

RDT has come out against the rule, and it's been rumored that Rob only wants NJ to get opps LS.
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #167 on: October 15, 2011, 12:07:18 AM »
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Splashing in a soul generation defense is something that a lot of speed decks already do. I cited Genesis before and I'll bring it up again. TAS and Cupbearer both generate a soul, the latter unnegatably so. They both fit in very well with what is likely the fastest defense in the game - Gentyptians, which can't really be used effectively without the third fastest offense in the game (behind Disciples and Sam in all his forms): Genesis. If this rule would get implemented before the spring/summer tournament season rolls around, you're looking at Genesis taking a big leap and becoming potentially more used than Disciples were last year. At least right now we have two offenses in the proverbial "S tier". Should the rule be implemented, you're looking at only one being at the top.
I too hate how hard it is to be competitive with defense heavy decks, it's frustrating. I've always preferred defense heavy decks and it just keeps getting harder and harder to make them competitive. I can definitely see where you are coming from.

As for the Genesis thing, I don't see it. First of all, Genesis Egyptians can still be very competitive without Genesis offense. It just requires a couple extra defensive cars. YAY! ;) Second of all, I definitely don't see it as being any more competitive with this rule. Only the defense gets a boost, and a minor one at that. Honestly, the best defense for soul generation is black canaanites. Egyptians only has the one card, plus Potipher's wife if you add battle winners, once again boosting speed. Without considering the defense, Genesis has Joseph before Pharoah, but other than that they are a searching offense that doesn't draw all that much and it stopped cold by Nazareth. I would see Disciples and TGTspeed getting bigger boosts than Genesis.

lp670sv, I'm sorry if I came off too rude, I wasn't really sure how to respond to your points. Your first that I responded to was directed at Bryon, and I was just correcting a mistake because it wasn't Bryon's fault. And your next two were just sarcastic. If you would share your concerns I'd be more than willing to address.
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lp670sv

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #168 on: October 15, 2011, 12:13:07 AM »
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Better still, try to break it.  See if you can create a deck where the new rule makes a broken situation.

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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #169 on: October 15, 2011, 12:24:24 AM »
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As for the Genesis thing, I don't see it. First of all, Genesis Egyptians can still be very competitive without Genesis offense. It just requires a couple extra defensive cars. YAY! ;) Second of all, I definitely don't see it as being any more competitive with this rule. Only the defense gets a boost, and a minor one at that. Honestly, the best defense for soul generation is black canaanites. Egyptians only has the one card, plus Potipher's wife if you add battle winners, once again boosting speed. Without considering the defense, Genesis has Joseph before Pharoah, but other than that they are a searching offense that doesn't draw all that much and it stopped cold by Nazareth. I would see Disciples and TGTspeed getting bigger boosts than Genesis.

I disagree. I rocked a small Genyptians defense with one enhancement paired with Genesis to great success. Not only does it generate a soul, but it's fast too. You can potentially get nine cards of drawing out of it, and that's not including using TDP more than twice if you use Writ or CM to win a battle. Canaanites might have more soul generation, but TAS fits better with Gen, and Genyptians is a better defense for small numbers in my opinion. Genesis isn't really stopped cold by Naz either. If you get Joe and Zeb out early enough, even with a first turn Naz, it's over.


Offline katedid

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #170 on: October 15, 2011, 10:19:41 AM »
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you believe that NJ gets used defensively by 'Speed' players more often than balanced deck players.
This is of course true.  speed players by definition get their SoG/NJ combo faster than balanced deck players in general.  Therefore they are able to use them defensively more often.  Everyone uses that combo defensively if they can (unless there is a 2-liner involved or rare instances of FBN LS or shuffler - which is still a defensive move).  And the speed play will be able to do it more often.

This thread is so long I'm not certain if this has been commented on, but literally every new or beginning player I know uses SOG/NJ defensively. Its my best defense. The only time I ever use SOG/NJ on my opponent is if I have no lost souls or my opponent has a shuffler out.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #171 on: October 15, 2011, 11:03:10 AM »
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This thread is so long I'm not certain if this has been commented on, but literally every new or beginning player I know uses SOG/NJ defensively.

Unfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all.

"You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #172 on: October 15, 2011, 11:25:50 AM »
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Unfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all.

"You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.
Hyperbole is the best thing ever!

This thread is so long I'm not certain if this has been commented on, but literally every new or beginning player I know uses SOG/NJ defensively.
FTFY.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #173 on: October 15, 2011, 11:28:19 AM »
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Unfortunately, the concerns of beginner players are not relevant, otherwise there would be no debate at all.

"You cannot rescue Lost Souls in your own territory" is the easiest thing for beginners to understand.
Hyperbole is the best thing ever!

Except....of course...that it was not a hyperbole.
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Simplicity or Balance?
« Reply #174 on: October 15, 2011, 11:30:07 AM »
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SoG/NJ is probably one of the best blocks a new player can have.
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