Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I don't have the list in front of me, but when players talk about LS generation I hear a lot of TAS, Malchus, DoM, etc., basically cards that are played on defense.   

Yes they are evil cards, but when the whole idea is for them to be defeated so they make themselves a LS in opponent's LoB I don't really see how they're much of a "defense." In the case of TAS, I can leave my defense exactly the way it is, add TAS in, and if anything my deck is faster AND has LS generation since he searches for whatever human EC would be most useful at that point in time while at the same time becoming a LS for me to rescue next turn.

Evil cards are not strictly used for defense just as good cards are not strictly used offensively. I've seen Grapes used far more often by the defending player than the attacking player, for example.

Does that explain where I'm coming from?

Or, remove time limits from type 1, so that defensive heavy decks aren't threatened by time-out points.

WOW Hey there! No one put that idea up before! Im up for increasing the time limit up to 1 hour+

Browarod, but if that becomes the main way to generate ls, James son of Alpheus and Ishmaiah now destroy all your ls generation. And both decks this year that I've made have included one of them. They are very popular, especially Ishmiah.

Yes but how to word this.... Some "older" players who take hours upon hours to read cards are the reason many players have problems with the 45 minute time limit thus causing many players to use speed decks to finish within the time limit.

No, wait, I got it -- the best deck is the one that draws the cards you need at the time you need them, regardless of how fast or slow.

Yeah, that's the ticket. 

And that is exactly why I've stuck with prophets for over a year now. Speed is nice, yeah, but being able to search for the specific card I need when I need it is way better, imho.

I like to play a defensive heavy deck that tries to stop everything my opponent can throw at it before walking in for the win in the end.  But the rules about time limits at tournaments make it impossible for that deck style to consistently win at top tournaments without timing out too often.  But I doubt you have a problem with this

In a perfect world, everyone would be able to play whatever deck type they want. I'm all for increasing the time limit of T1 rounds. Ken's defense-heavy deck was hilarious to watch and if it meant he could legitimately win more games with it then I'd be happy to see that happen.

To some extant this is true.  But at some point there are so many adjustments that have to be made that it just stops being dominant anymore.  I used to play site lockout, but then last year Fishing Boat came out (and was popular) which made that hard enough to pull off that it wasn't worth it.  I used to play Zeb decks, but after a couple years of adding counters to keep it viable, I've decided that it's just not a good way to go anymore.  The offenses nowadays are so hard to stop that I can't seem to build a defense tough enough to stop them all, and still have enough room for Zeb and all the necessary counters.

Honestly, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Speed isn't necessarily the issue, it's just a symptom. Offenses these days are just too powerful, so powerful that even full defenses have trouble keeping them out. As such, the ony way to have a chance at winning it to include your own huge offense and try your best to draw into your better cards before your opponent, which speed allows. I think the game would be a lot more balanced if the defense was not always left out to dry. I know that Redemption is all about the good being stronger and bringing the Souls to Redemption, but for the sake of the gameplay mechanics I think stronger defense would have much more of an impact on winning vs losing than trying to get people to not play speed.

Browarod, but if that becomes the main way to generate ls, James son of Alpheus and Ishmaiah now destroy all your ls generation. And both decks this year that I've made have included one of them. They are very popular, especially Ishmiah.

I should have specified before that my Gardenciples deck already contains Harvest Time and the Hopper, so characters are the only things I could possibly add to it.

I agree I have no problem with the time limit but go to nationals and the story is different.

Since I have never been to Nats, you will have to elaborate.

Quote from: Isildur on October 14, 2011, 05:43:46 PM

I agree I have no problem with the time limit but go to nationals and the story is different.

Since I have never been to Nats, you will have to elaborate.

To make a 45 minute story short. Alot of times the game doesnt finish.




And.... Stamp that is a great idea!

To make a 45 minute story short. Alot of times the game doesnt finish.

Are you saying that you don't even get 45 minutes for a Type 1 2-player game at Nationals?

So all of this talk of speed deck dominance is a direct byproduct of Nationals time issues. More players use speed decks at the major tournaments since there isn't enough time for them to use any other decks.

It's not just nationals, It's any tournament following the proper time limit's. I can understand Locals and Districts being more lax, but anything above that should be following the 45 min/round for T12P.

"Proper?"
 "Lax?"

The tournament guide from Cactus specifically says one hour rounds for T1-2P. How is the "proper" time 45 minutes, and how am I being "lax" if I follow the tournament guide from Cactus.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on October 14, 2011, 07:26:09 PM

It's not just nationals, It's any tournament following the proper time limit's. I can understand Locals and Districts being more lax, but anything above that should be following the 45 min/round for T12P.

"Proper?"
 "Lax?"

The tournament guide from Cactus specifically says one hour rounds for T1-2P. How is the "proper" time 45 minutes, and how am I being "lax" if I follow the tournament guide from Cactus.

Because you're not properly interpretating the document. The 1Hour is the suggested time that it will take for the entire round, including making pairings, shuffling decks, reporting scores etc. This time is given so that tournament hosts can give the best possible estimate as to time of completion. Actual gameplay is 45 Min.

My apologies, I take back my statement about interpretation of the document. I know that the rest of what I said is accurate as far as time limits goes, but you are correct as to what the guide says.

I think the most important factor in this argument is to pin down why exactly speed is the top dog, and the answer is because of the nature of card games. The actual game play of Redemption is largely based on luck, and speed minimizes that luck as much as possible. Thus, unless drastic, overpowered counters are produced, speed will remain the best strategy out there. It's worth noting that for all the talks of "this will hurt speed and increase diversity," most good speed decks already have some soul generation (at the very least, Harvest Time and Hopper, and many include TAS). What's interesting to note is that despite the claims of the side that believes this ruling won't hurt speed, it's very obvious that it will. Nearly every single form of soul generation can be stopped mid-to-late game, whether it be via Naz, Jerusalem Tower, FBTN Lost Soul, or Tassels. If a person were to build a defense entirely around Soul Stalling (which is undoubtedly what the strategy would be called), it could potentially be very successful. However, how am I going to make sure I draw all those counters early enough to matter? I've got it! I'll put some SPEED in my deck! Plot twist! Thus, we discover that "Bryon" is actually M. Night Shyamalan.

Now, regarding my opinions on the rule itself (which I'm avidly against). First off, I don't really think that a person needs to play a lot of games before their opinion should be considered valid. My own credentials are not "dozens and dozens of games," however, I've played roughly ten games with the rule, in ROOT or otherwise, and if you decide that that doesn't mean that I'm qualified to have an opinion, then feel free to disregard me. My overall impression of the rule has been extremely negative. It's going to increase the popularity of specific themes, one of which is already quite powerful (Genesis). Additionally, you cannot logically say that this will not increase the amount of luck required in a game. If I put five forms of soul generation in my deck (Hopper, Harvest Time, A Slave, Cupbearer, and Woman at the Well), I'm still only going to draw one of them every four or five draws, unless I use speed to get them faster. If my opponent is using Covenant with Death, one of those options are no longer effective, which leaves me with three (I can get that back up to five if I manage to draw DoN quick enough - if only I had more drawing). If they're using Nazareth, I'm down to one option that can be used, and if they use the FBTN Soul (which will become a staple should this rule be placed into effect), suddenly, none of my soul generation works anymore. My only option to reduce this risk is to use speed to draw quickly.

Bryon, specifically addressing your comment about this not being a democracy (I was the one who made the comment that mentioned that, if the rule would be implemented, it would show severe apathy on the part of the Elders towards the regular members), I agree that it's not, however, you did put this issue to a vote, and the vast majority of members said they would not want to see the rule applied this tournament season (and many of them not at all). I forget the exact figure, but it was something like 2/3 didn't want to see it happen. For Rob and the Elders (a great rock band name by the way - somebody work on this) to just ignore something like that because the game isn't being played the way you all would like does show a distinct disregard for the popular opinion. Regardless of whether or not this is a democracy, if a leader (or body of leaders) does something that only 1/3 of the population agrees with that affects the whole, they're considered a bad leader. Not that I'm calling Rob or any of the Elders bad leaders, I'm simply making a point.

Finally, if you want to reduce the punch of New Jerusalem, ban it. Don't propose and defend extremely controversial rules to try to appease those who don't like it (I am not one of them - I don't have a problem with it). Either ban it or leave it alone.

Chronic apathy, great points. Here's a couple comments to consider.

1. What about all the games with successful attempts at stopping speed? Of course, there are tons of games where speed is still great, but what about all the times that players have reported where speed IS stopped, or at least not as effective? I understand the argument that you'll want more speed to get out your lost soul generation, but wouldn't you agree there's another side to that coin that you have to be attacked to use most of that? Nazareth is not hard to get, after that you're basically down to evil strategies. A defense-heavy deck with little offense won't give you very many opportunities to block and give them ls to rescue.

2. You talk about complaints about the rule. But how many complaints have there been about Samuel decks and TGT decks? Now whether or not this rule can stop them is another issue, and is what the above comment is talking about, but assuming it WOULD stop them, there are a lot more people frustrated at TGT than at this potential rule change.

3. As to my own personal experiences, my fastest decks do get me frustrated with this rule. I have a LOT of soul generation, both on offense and defense, and I get frustrated because as fast as your deck is, I typically can't get 5 ls in my opponent's land of bondage by turn 3. Without this rule, it's relatively common to win a game in three turns.