Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Aright this weekend I'm at Dexcon working with Reyzen working the Redemption booth and I've noticed a few things about how the game is sold, and what's been working and what hasn't. First a mini rant. Every time I see any sort of promotion for Redemption, or I hear people trying to push it, there is one common phase. "Redemption is an alternative..." Sometimes it's Christian alternative, sometimes it's just alternative. STOP SELLING Redemption as an alternative to ANYTHING. Think about it. You're a (insert name of CCG here) player. You've spent tons and tons of money on the game you play. Someone comes up to you and says hey do yo want to try thi alternative? No. Why would anyone leave a game they've spend so much money on for just an alternative. They wouldn't/ Sell it as a stand alone CCG. Magic doesn't sell it self as alternative to pokemon because it's not they are independent games. Sell Redemption as an independent game and you might get more converts.

Now what hasn't been working.

*person approaches table*
"Hey what's this?"
"oh it's a christian card game"
*person walks away*

Rather we want to talk about it or not, if you label something as a christian game people tend to assume that it's bad. Even most Christian's don't play solely Christian games, it's just something about labelling something as Christian that people assume that it must be terrible. Frankly if it were up to me Id take down the display of Cactus Board games as they all say bible edition on them, and as soon as people look at them they're like oh all these are just christian versions of games. But it's a Cactus display and I can't do that.

What HAS been working.

*Person approaches table looking at booster packs and starter decks*
"Hey do you like CCG's?"
"Yeah I play (insert name of CCG)"
"Wanna give this one a demo?"
"Sure"
*we play a game*
*they realize that the game is fun*

I actually had one guy say when we were done playing that when he saw the bible verses on the bottom of the cards he assumed the game would be terrible and that he actually had fun playing. He is now signed up for the NJ state tournament. That's happened 3 times. 3 new Redemption players (all of which came to the booth between 4 and 7 am. yeah i was up all night) because I sold it as a CCG first that just happened to be based on the bible. It works. Stop selling as an alternative, stop selling it as a Christian game and just sell it as a CCG.

I realize some people are going  say that it's supposed to be a Christian game first spreading the word of the bible, but you can't spread the word of the bible if NO ONE IS PLAYING. Get them hooked, then use it to spread the bible. Lather, rinse, repeat and suddenly we can compete with the Magic's of the world.

I agree with your post, I've had simmilar failures / sucess when trying to market / explain the game to people.
Redemption is not an alternative, it's a seperate game with unique mechanics.

Pol is right also, we should market to the game's strengths. Being unique mechanics and background.

Thaddeus-style parents

Wyn.

Stop selling as an alternative, stop selling it as a Christian game and just sell it as a CCG.

This is huge, but I would like to say one thing: know your audience. If you're marketing to Christians, mention it's based on the Bible. If you're at something such as Dexcon, let them figure that out.

"Foot soldiers" get plenty of support from Cactus.  It comes in the form of discounted merchandise.  If you want Rob to have a marketing budget, pay retail.

So where did all this Rob Anderson bashing start, anyway? It seems to be on the rise lately.

I'm not "bashing Rob". I'm agreeing that selling it as a emphasizing the Christian aspect turns people away, which is sad. In fact, hopefully we can help change people's thoughts on that once they realize how awesome of a CCG it is.

In fairness, I have worked with Rob for several years as he has made appearances at large-scale mainstream conventions including Origins and Gen-Con Indy, resulting in some slightly divergent internal observations.

I would like to note first and foremost Rob's commitment to quality in his games.  Those who play Redemption regularly do not need to be told this, but even in board-gaming circles, Ark of the Covenant is known as a quality adaptation of Carcassonne which kind of combines the first three editions and has simpler field scoring, and Settlers of Canaan is at least passable for people who want to try Catan with a larger, static board.

The problem is, these attempts at entry into the strategy boardgaming market did not really take off, even with Klaus Teuber and Klaus-Jurgen Wrede credited as designers, because the gamers look at theme and Christianity consistently gets a knock as a theme for one of the two aforementioned reasons: either because it's too Flanders-y for some people or because other Bible-themed games have been either horrendously designed or thinly veiled Bible trivia quizzes.  Conversely, selling mainstream-style games to the Lifeway crowd is a challenge because they never seem to think there is ENOUGH Jesus in a game.  Anyone who's had a church turn away their Redemption pitch probably knows what I'm talking about.

On the one hand, I think it's an odd thing considering some of the other themes that either get glossed over or are even more appealing because they're unorthodox or even controversial.  But I guess humans will always have an appetite for the apple they shouldn't have.  But that's the tightrope Christian-themed games are forced to walk, between one demo that thinks there's too much Jesus and another that thinks there's not enough.

As it was, Redemption might very well have gone under at the turn of the century when the CCG market collapsed under its own weight.  Two things saved it at the time: 1). Warriors shot the game forward and 2). the marketing formula was shifted much more towards sales in Christian stores.  The game quite simply performs better in its niche market, and its popularity surged (comparatively speaking) thereafter.

When people ask why they would get Bible Apples or Bible Scattergories rather than the original version, I would say first of all that it can be an "and" rather than an "or" - you can mix and match the components like they were just a themed expansion - and secondly, just like in the Wal-Mart and the Go Game Stores, the party games sell substantially more than the strategy games.  Again, this is not to suggest that Rob sells out or is any less committed to quality releases, it's just that any reasonable business that wants to stay in business, has to go where the dollars are.

Not knowing any of the fine details of Rob's business model, I would dare to presume that there's no money to do any hardcore marketing push.  I'd drop everything I was doing and go work for Rob tomorrow if he asked me, but [cliche]in this economy[/cliche] it's a tough industry to be in if you're not Rio Grande, Fantasy Flight or Z-Man.  I see a lot of the same thing with other small publishers like Tablestar, and Smirk and Dagger.

So as the years have gone on, he's had to drop Origins and Gen-Con - which were garnering neither the attention nor the sales to justify the cost - in favor of Christian retail shows, and concentrate sales in the Christian stores where they're actually moving product.  The "Christian alternative game to X" is not a great selling point in The Real World (tm) so long as people attach a stigma to it, I don't deny that for a second.  But it works with the people who are helping him pay the bills.  And at least he has that option; Tablestar is currently in the Odin-sleep hoping to rise again when the economy improves.

Bottom line: I don't really think Rob is neglecting a key market or in some way dropping the ball when it comes to marketing.  I think he's just trying to make some lemonade with what he has at the moment.

And I'm pretty sure I stipulated exactly that point in my post.  My point was simply that the line was intended for them as a significant portion of current sales, and not to be used as a cut-and-paste line that's supposed to apply universally.  What people are seeing from Cactus is marketing to his core demo; what other people are saying in their efforts to explain the game, I don't think should be hung on Rob, whom I never saw compromise his core principles from the design but neither did I see him try to proselytize the entire convention.

It wasn't really your post to which I came to Rob's defense, as you didn't really call out Cactus in particular for the marketing of the game.  Obviously, when you're out in the field it's whoever happens to be manning the booth.

Most of my references to the boardgaming side are because I've seen that market develop over the last several years with Cactus and other companies I've interacted with through the Columbus Area Boardgaming Society and/or Origins, so I've seen that effective marketing can overcome thematic "stigma" - and I don't disagree that a more targeted approach may be more effective at the cons - but I've also seen that, even with really good buzz, it's really tough for small publishers these days.  Meaning only that having to "work around" the Jesus angle is only one factor of several right now, and again, only really referring to Cactus' role in promoting its business, not to discredit anything you've said about the pitch men in the trenches.

No one wants to see the game grow more than I, and I'd like to see some more real board games come down the pike, but it's tough not to be a little skeptical after seeing some discouraging results in recent years.