Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: Red Wing on February 25, 2018, 02:55:33 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on February 25, 2018, 02:49:04 PM

I think one of the major things that prevents growth is the cost to get into the game whether buying single cards or packs.

I highly doubt that considering Redemption is much cheaper than almost every other CCG in existence. You could probably put a relatively competitive deck together in $100 or less.

Saying that Redemption is "much cheaper than almost every other CCG in existence" has nothing to do with the cost being a problem for new players to get into the game (and it is actually more expensive if you look at the per card cost from random packs)

You said that one of the reasons Redemption isn't growing is that the entry cost is inhibiting it, so I actually think it's very relevant when you consider that other games with more expensive barriers are growing just fine.

Quote from: The Guardian on February 25, 2018, 04:34:39 PM

Quote from: Red Wing on February 25, 2018, 02:55:33 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on February 25, 2018, 02:49:04 PM

I think one of the major things that prevents growth is the cost to get into the game whether buying single cards or packs.

I highly doubt that considering Redemption is much cheaper than almost every other CCG in existence. You could probably put a relatively competitive deck together in $100 or less.

I would say CoW and RoJ have bumped up the "competitive deck" price a bit (mainly due to TSC and Woes), but even those are not absolutely necessary.

They are if you're trying to play competitively. TSC directly contributes to your win condition when used to search for SoG and Three Woes fits in 95% of decks. Only drawback of using TSC is if you can't search your discard pile because of something like signet ring. Of course you can counter all of those counters with... guess what.... Three woes!

I got 5th in T1-2P with NJ instead of TSC.

Quote from: The Guardian on February 25, 2018, 04:34:39 PM

Quote from: Red Wing on February 25, 2018, 02:55:33 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on February 25, 2018, 02:49:04 PM

I think one of the major things that prevents growth is the cost to get into the game whether buying single cards or packs.

I highly doubt that considering Redemption is much cheaper than almost every other CCG in existence. You could probably put a relatively competitive deck together in $100 or less.

I would say CoW and RoJ have bumped up the "competitive deck" price a bit (mainly due to TSC and Woes), but even those are not absolutely necessary.

Obligatory mention of this thread

Simply not running TSC almost cuts those numbers in half. Also, that thread assumes you're buying at TLG prices. Other than a few high end things like Woes, nothing will sell on the market unless its 50-70% off TLG.

What do you feel would be a reasonable cost for someone to "get into the game"?

Personally I think a new player should be able to get into the game at the lowest level for about $50 which would get the new player a starter deck + some new packs. (and hopefully they get some cards they can use)

But the initial cost of buying a starter deck and a player getting into the game that far isn't a problem. (I think the starter decks are fairly priced for what you get)

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on February 25, 2018, 04:55:13 PM

Quote from: Red Wing on February 25, 2018, 02:55:33 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on February 25, 2018, 02:49:04 PM

I think one of the major things that prevents growth is the cost to get into the game whether buying single cards or packs.

I highly doubt that considering Redemption is much cheaper than almost every other CCG in existence. You could probably put a relatively competitive deck together in $100 or less.

Saying that Redemption is "much cheaper than almost every other CCG in existence" has nothing to do with the cost being a problem for new players to get into the game (and it is actually more expensive if you look at the per card cost from random packs)

You said that one of the reasons Redemption isn't growing is that the entry cost is inhibiting it, so I actually think it's very relevant when you consider that other games with more expensive barriers are growing just fine.

What I'm saying is that the entry cost being problem for new players has little to do with how much other CCGs cost because most people who play Redemption don't want to play other CCGs for various reasons.

(on a side note)
In my experience with other Redemption players most stick around and keep buying cards because they won't just sell out and go to another CCG because it's cheaper. Most Redemption players love the game because the theme is unique and will stick around no matter what the cost as long as it's not too unreasonable.

It's hard to give an answer short of going into a discussion of what Redemption actually costs and what you get for your $ compared to other CCGs.

Yes I agree that if "getting into the game" means buying a starter deck and then a few packs then that is fine.
(any talk about buying packs gets into what actually comes in a single pack for $5 as well)

If "getting into the game" is defined as creating a collection that is able to support the creation of at least one deck with the option of switching out a few offenses / defenses while being decently competitive Then we get into another discussion.

I'm going to create a new thread and reference all of the relevant posts from here so we don't clog up this thread.

A player can pretty easily "get into the game" and have a deck that's competitive enough to place at local, district and maybe even State level tournaments for around $50. The I/J Starter, NJ and a couple FooF/RoA packs and TLG singles will have anyone up and running.

To my knowledge nobody has won a Regional or National tournament (in this or any game) without making a substantial investment over time. That might be a financial investment of building a collection and it is definitely a learning investment where they master the game. The learning investment definitely involves playing with/against other high level players and ultimately involves establishing relationships.

Now that the player is established in the community and knows the game well, they have probably acquired some of the cards they want for their deck. I can't count the number of times I've seen players borrow or loan cards to/from friends. You don't need to own every card in your deck. If you've been watching the Trumpet Blast lately, just make sure one of those friends is Ryan Ertmer and you'll even have TSC and 3W to use! 

All that to say, I don't see the cost as being all that prohibitive. If anything, I imagine it's the number of seasoned players and playgroup leaders who are available in certain areas.

Now that the player is established in the community and knows the game well, they have probably acquired some of the cards they want for their deck. I can't count the number of times I've seen players borrow or loan cards to/from friends. You don't need to own every card in your deck. If you've been watching the Trumpet Blast lately, just make sure one of those friends is Ryan Ertmer and you'll even have TSC and 3W to use! 

The main reason that the playgroup was so big in the Twin Cities is because we had summer events through our local church and made the chaser cards readily available for trade, to the point were it sometimes hurt haha like trading Mountain of God for Michael. When people could get at least some of the cards they wanted, and we aren't even talking about acquiring State, Regional, or Nationals competitive decks, they stuck around and had fun with there friends for a few years. Basically, success is relative and thus establishing a robust playgroup is key.

But yeah, relationship building through an inclusive environment and access to cards goes a long way. The investment will follow.

I think a lots comes down to card balance and rules complexity.

Regarding card balance some cards make it feel like you just auto lose to them such as Gideon or CoL.  This is especially true for new players because they don’t yet understand how to build their deck differently, it just feels hopeless. 

Regarding rules, they are complex enough almost every time I spend an evening playing with friends, multiple questions will come up that I am unsure of, and I have been playing for close to 15 years.  It is frustrating to me, I can’t imagine trying to learn all the different card ‘play as’ or errata, and the ‘I saw that explained in a random topic on the boards’.

I believe Noah will make a thread detailing this scenario but suffice to say for now that at our recent tournament last Saturday we had a game timeout 0-0 because of a battle on the second turn that lasted 40 minutes and was full of constant ability reading/carrying out abilities/cascade negation, etc.

Also regarding the cost for a new player to "get into the game" I agree fully that if a new player wanted to "get into the game" at a minimal level the cost of getting an I/J starter + some tins packs + a few singles at or around the $50 dollar mark is perfectly fine (Because they know what they are getting) but once you start getting into the random packs from TExP-RoJ the cost starts to increase dramatically to get a whole set or singles. That is where I believe we get into another discussion beyond a player "getting into the game" beyond a very basic level.

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on February 26, 2018, 11:14:55 AM

I believe Noah will make a thread detailing this scenario but suffice to say for now that at our recent tournament last Saturday we had a game timeout 0-0 because of a battle on the second turn that lasted 40 minutes and was full of constant ability reading/carrying out abilities/cascade negation, etc.

That seems...excessive...

The first time there was a ruling question was after the game had timed out already. Just because most games don't get into long involved battles doesn't mean it's impossible.

EDIT: Noah might post a thread about the scenario

Whoo-hoo!!!

Let me know how I can create the situation where I can take a 40 minute turn.

If I can turn that into a semi-reliable (heck, even a kinda-reliable) deck I will start playing again.

Whoo-hoo!!!

Let me know how I can create the situation where I can take a 40 minute turn.

If I can turn that into a semi-reliable (heck, even a kinda-reliable) deck I will start playing again.

With like 5(?) green and blue Heroes now, any Type 2 with 3 Stone Pillar at Bethel, 3 Hidden Treasures, an array of Blue/Green Heroes, 4 Answer to Prayers, and 4 ANBs could probably get you close enough. See you in Rochester on Friday Matt. 

If you really wanted to cut costs on getting into the game, go digital and play online through LackeyCCG.