Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: Daniel on April 24, 2018, 09:21:05 PM
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Being that Hearthstone is a simplified version of Magic the Gathering (or at least has the bones of MTG), is there interest or potential for a simplified Hearthstone-esque version of Redemption that is published independently of Cactus?
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Type 3 would be a really good place to start with this.. Maybe even Type 3 based on I/J starters..
That said my ideal app would have all of the luxuries of Hearthstone, but for T1 Redemption.
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Yes, and I would play those kinds of mechanics on a different skin than Biblical material.
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Yes, and I would play those kinds of mechanics on a different skin than Biblical material.
Sorry, what do you mean?
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Yes, and I would play those kinds of mechanics on a different skin than Biblical material.
Sorry, what do you mean?
It doesn't have to be Bible-Based, it has to be the simplified Redemption game engine. i.e rules and mechanics.
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Haven't played Hearthstone, but have watched a couple games. Anyone who plays, can you confirm that one of the biggest distinctives is that it is turn-based and there are no responsive cards? Same with Star Realms/Hero Realms. Eliminating the response-type cards streamlines the game, makes the rules easier to understand, and speeds up the game. Think of how many Redemption rules are centered around responses (what's the difference between interrupt+prevent and negate again? because, you know, there was a difference at one point).
I'd be extremely interested in being involved in this project. Please get in touch with me.
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There are no "interrupt" affects in the current card base of Hearthstone. There are Triggered Response that happen when characters "die" (aka discarded from play), attack, or block. Some characters have triggered abilities at the start of a given phase. There are also non-character cards that work like a "trap." You play it face down, and when a given criteria is met you reveal it and perform the triggered action (something like [not a real card]: "Thorn Trap: If your opponent attacks you with a character that has 5 or more power, reveal this card and deal 5 damage to it before combat.)
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Yes, that's what I meant. There would be two levels of this possible.
Hearthstone and Star Realms are completely turn-based. When it's my turn, you play no cards at all. Redemption might not work well with this format. One of its strengths is the idea of a back-and-forth between the forces (H-EC-HE-EE).
My understanding is that this back-and-forth of Redemption offsets the issue of manna (cost of playing a card). In Redemption, it's just as easy to play AoC Promo as it is to play Buckler. Others have argued Redemption needs (or is inferior because it doesn't have) a cost-to-play element (for example, this was partially what attributed to the demise of the Star Trek CCG 1st Edition). It's been interesting to see how other games have dealt with this. Hero Realms has a very simplified manna element. Star Realms doesn't have one because there isn't a back-and-forth. I think the back-and-forth format of might still work. One of the early major decisions of development of a streamlined Redemption game, though would be whether or not to keep this back-and-forth; and in tandem with a decision regarding manna.
The 2nd important element of those games is that there are no interrupts. Redemption in this format would have to eliminate dominants, interrupt, and negate cards. There couldn't be a constant question of "would you like special initiative to play a dominant or interrupt?" When doing battle, you simply play a card when its your turn, and nothing can undo that. It's done and over with, now move on. This goes a long way to reducing the complexity of the rules.
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Well, yes and no. It's a different complexity. Chess doesnt have "interruption" like Redemption. You do your action on your turn. It's what you do on your turn that is the "back and forth." The more player interaction a game has, the more difficult it is to keep all mechanics in a healthy balance - this is why Hearthstone has opted for player interaction to be limited to the actions you do on your turn (with the exception of triggered abilities).
I would also argue that "Redemption's Back and Forth" does not replace a mana system, seems like two different points.
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The 2nd important element of those games is that there are no interrupts. Redemption in this format would have to eliminate dominants, interrupt, and negate cards.
I have discussed this elsewhere (see for example http://www.cactusforums.com/game-design/redemption-tcg-online-(ios-and-android-app-)/msg570607/#msg570607 (http://www.cactusforums.com/game-design/redemption-tcg-online-(ios-and-android-app-)/msg570607/#msg570607)). After much thought my question is, "If you eliminate Dominants, interrupts, negate, etc. are you still playing Redemption?" I have not been able to convince myself that the answer to this would ever be "Yes."
Also, if you are interested in helping out with something like this, someone is supposedly already working on this. The thread to look at is http://www.cactusforums.com/game-design/redemption-tcg-online-(ios-and-android-app-)/ (http://www.cactusforums.com/game-design/redemption-tcg-online-(ios-and-android-app-)/)
The more player interaction a game has, the more difficult it is to keep all mechanics in a healthy balance - this is why Hearthstone has opted for player interaction to be limited to the actions you do on your turn (with the exception of triggered abilities).
The issue isn't so much one of balance as it is that a game is not a whole lot of fun to play if you have to provide mechanisms for interrupts, which are just draggy.
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I have discussed this elsewhere (see for example http://www.cactusforums.com/game-design/redemption-tcg-online-(ios-and-android-app-)/msg570607/#msg570607 (http://www.cactusforums.com/game-design/redemption-tcg-online-(ios-and-android-app-)/msg570607/#msg570607)). After much thought my question is, "If you eliminate Dominants, interrupts, negate, etc. are you still playing Redemption?" I have not been able to convince myself that the answer to this would ever be "Yes."
Great points and insights from the app thread! I definitely think the interrupt and reaction cards are very important to Redemption. I don't believe, though, they are the "core" of the game. The only way Redemption was able to make it in the face of potential backlash from the church was in the fact that you don't have to take the side of the EC to win the game. The Heroic force is the only one that can win the game for you. The back-and-forth then between Heroes and Evil Forces, in my view, is what couldn't be eliminated. I can somewhat see your argument re: interrupts and special initiative, but again, just think of the complexity that would be eliminated. I think that's a big part of the appeal of games like Star Realms and Hearthstone. There's not a need for a deep level of understanding of all those potential interactions, rather a focus on the tactical building.
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Being that Hearthstone is a simplified version of Magic the Gathering (or at least has the bones of MTG), is there interest or potential for a simplified Hearthstone-esque version of Redemption that is published independently of Cactus?
I would encourage the possibility of this being a deck-building game as well. One of the advantages of games like these is accessibility. Star Realms/Hero Realms/Epic have done an incredible job at making the games ultra-accessible. I strongly think that's a good model for a project like this.
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Being that Hearthstone is a simplified version of Magic the Gathering (or at least has the bones of MTG), is there interest or potential for a simplified Hearthstone-esque version of Redemption that is published independently of Cactus?
Also, would this have to be published independently of Cactus? If it were a distinct game, and if it ultimately served as a gateway, I'd think Rob would be more than willing to consider publishing it. Or, at the very least, lending the supply chain to the effort. Just a thought :-)
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Being that Hearthstone is a simplified version of Magic the Gathering (or at least has the bones of MTG), is there interest or potential for a simplified Hearthstone-esque version of Redemption that is published independently of Cactus?
Also, would this have to be published independently of Cactus? If it were a distinct game, and if it ultimately served as a gateway, I'd think Rob would be more than willing to consider publishing it. Or, at the very least, lending the supply chain to the effort. Just a thought :-)
I ask because I am the one considering publishing it, and Cactus has been unwilling to work with me so far.
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I can somewhat see your argument re: interrupts and special initiative, but again, just think of the complexity that would be eliminated.
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I would encourage the possibility of this being a deck-building game as well.
A Christian-themed deck building game with (little to) no player back-and-forth interactions. I play Star Realms and could definitely see myself playing a game like this. What that game would not be, however, is Redemption. (I am not even sure it would be a useful gateway for getting new players into Redemption.)
So I guess I have answered Daniel's question. In return I have one follow-up question for Daniel and one for the boards...
@Daniel If you would need to come up with what amounts to basically a new game and Cactus isn't interested in working with you--why have any tie in to Redemption at all?
@EveryoneElse If there were a Christian-themed online game like what has been discussed above, would you be play it even if it was a completely separate product from Redemption?
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Depends on the game mechanics. I like deck building games, but I don't know if I would play it a ton. On the other hand, aside from redemption, I play two other CCGs online fairly regularly. I personally enjoy that a lot more, especially when it's not just "my numbers are higher so I beat you," which has been my experience with many deck building games. they all seem much more simple.
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Could start by looking at mechanics in Victory at Hebron. They were much different, for starters it was based on defeating characters and not on rescuing lost souls.
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Or what about Type Half?
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(https://image.ibb.co/mTeVad/ec_small.png)
Mobile version:
(https://image.ibb.co/meAp1J/mobile.png)
Here's my current concept for the Hearthstone-style Redemption game. There would be no brigades in the new game (too difficult to implement for a mobile game), and the dove symbol represents a Covenant (and a snake represents a curse).
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The app is such an obvious solution to current problems involving:
Rules
Cards wording
Learning
All of these things having to be repeated and even now reprinted to be replaced could simply be done in app immediately for all players who have it.
It is beyond me (50,000$) why we don't have it already