Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: Prof Underwood on December 22, 2009, 10:58:28 AM
-
We have 8 candidates for each of the 2 categories for the Hall of Fame for 2010. Since this is the first year of the Hall of Fame, we will be making an exception to the rules and allow 2 people from each category to be elected.
After the election, all 4 people will be in one combined group of Hall of Famers. They are simply separated below to display their various contributions. I would appreciate all input onto this thread being positive. Please state why someone should be voted for as opposed to why someone should not be. If you have any reason why someone should be excluded (steroid use, etc.) please PM me about it :) Next year, a new Player and Contributor will be added to the lists and we will vote again.
Players:
Justin Alstad – [T1-mp (x2), T2-2p, T2-mp] - Feared in both T1 and T2. Piloted the first speed prototype deck to a Nats win. Also contributes to the game as a playtester.
Keith Bartram (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg300037#msg300037) – [T1-2p (x3)] - Winning Redemption's biggest event at nats every time he went.
Joshua Hey (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg299737#msg299737) – [T2-2p, T2-mp (x2)] - 4th place overall RNRS when he left the game. One of only 3 players to place in the top 3 at Nats in 3 different events in the same year.
Gabe Isbell – [T1-2p (x2), T2-2p, Teams] - Forced Redemption to create TGT to stop his T1 defense, and the hand limit to stop his T2 combo. Both may have been created by others, but Gabe piloted them in a way that won Nats and changed the game.
Eric Kimmons (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg301850#msg301850) – [T2-2p (x2), T2-mp (x2)] - Only player ever to win 4 Nats in a row. One of 2 players who have won at 4 different Nats at all.
Tim Maly – [T1-2p (x2), T2-2p] - Consistently at the top for many years, and helping create the "new REG"
Sam Nurge – [Sealed, Booster] - Winning the two "random" events in the same year, proving it isn't quite so random
Ron Sias – [Sealed, Booster (x2), T1-mp (x2), T2-2p, T2-mp] - Has won more types of events over more years than anyone else.
Contributors:
Rob Anderson – Creator of the game
Chris Bany – owner of Covenant Games, perennial Nats stat man, Nats host, Playtester
Mike Berkenpas – Author and Keeper of the REG, Playtester
Roy Cruz – the Heart of Redemption, Nats host
Doug Gray – Artist, original owner of 3LG, Playtester
Bryon Hake – Primary card designer, Settler of forum disputes, Nats host, Playtester, 2x Nats winner [T2-2p]
John Michaliszyn – Host extraordinaire, Creation Festival Guru, Playtester
Stephen Schaefer – Creator and manager of the Storehouse, Overlord of the online forum, Nats host, Playtester
-
Let the discussion begin!
Feel free to share interesting stories about each of the candidates in addition to your reasons why you think they should win. After there has been a good discussion, we'll actually have the voting during the firstlast week of January. Have fun all :)
-
Obviously Rob is going in ;)
Ron Sias is perhpas one of the greatest redemption players off all time, he's been around since the beggining, and with a T1 2Player victory would be the first player EVER to win every event at a nationals level.
-
but but what about teams
-
Can people not on this list be nominated, or will the 4 people in the Hall of Fame necessarily be from the 16 you selected?
-
I definitely vote Rob as the contributor, he definitely deserves it.
As for player, my vote is for Gabe. I'm not in tune with the national scope and a lot of the players listed, but I know that Gabe is an amazing player. A lot of the list is either a T1 or T2 master, while Gabe has forced cards/rulings in both categories. He has also won what are IMHO the 2 major categories (T1-2P and T2-2P). I don't personally beleive MP to be "real" categories, more of a hack, so Gabe's list of wins are even more impressive to me. He almost swept Nats 09 and IMHO, deserves the win.
-
Can people not on this list be nominated, or will the 4 people in the Hall of Fame necessarily be from the 16 you selected?
I'm going to start with this list for this year. However, if you have suggestions, please PM me. Based on who gets nominated through PM, we'll choose the people who will be added to these lists next year.
-
Right, I forgot about teams, Ron's Close though, closer than anyone else,
As far as Cameron's Comment, Tim has also won both Major Categories, though not in the same year.
-
for contibuters i say rob and byon
for players i say tim maly who i belive is better than gabe.then i vote justin.
-
Right, I forgot about teams, Ron's Close though, closer than anyone else,
As far as Cameron's Comment, Tim has also won both Major Categories, though not in the same year.
I don't doubt it. Like I said, I am far less in touch with national Redemption than most players "my experience". I voted Gabe simply on what I know and more importantly, what I know of him. Many may disagree, but it still is my opinion.
If the future is kind to me, maybe I'll be able to trek East for a Nats and learn more about Redemption outside of the smaller west. ;)
-
Please remember that we are voting in 2 people from each category this time. So those of you who have shared your ideas on your top pick, who would you also suggest voting for.
Also, please remember to share stories if you have them. I'll give an example.
I first met Gabe at Nats '07 in Kansas City. He was pretty unknown then, and took a lot of people by surprise when he won T1-2p with a deck that had almost no defense in it. His deck became the prototype for a speed deck that was copied by many and feared by many others. But what stands out to me most was after the tournament was over. He had collected all his prize packs (which was a lot), and simply walked around the room stopping at tables where young kids were playing some last games just for fun. At each table he would give a pack to each kid, and then quietly walk away to the next table. His generosity that day with physical packs matches his generosity with skills and ideas that he consistently teaches and shares with other players.
-
For players, I'm going with Tim Maly and Justin Alstad (who you forgot to mention invented Speed).
For contributors, I must point out that there is one big contender you are leaving out: Wild Bill Voigt! Mybe he won't be recognized until after he hosts the 2010 nationals, but I still think he deserves to be a nominee.
-
For players, I'm going with Tim Maly and Justin Alstad (who you forgot to mention invented Speed).
Justin is pretty legit, and he built the first Speed deck that actually worked. He didn't invent speed though, that honor goes to the quadfather, who actually challenged Justin to build a deck that could deck in one turn. (I think it was the quadfather)
-
btw i help create the hall of fame in one day!btw why is whitten and largent not on the list?
-
I honestly think Rob should be auto and not have him take up a slot. You are just asking for someone to lose a spot to the Creator of the Game.
Plus, I think more than one player should be added per year. As for voting, I can already predict who is going to go in. There may be an alternate for players because I think that is a 3 horse race...but this lends itself to predictability.
People are "famous" for a reason.
My :2cents:
EDIT: Also, (since I'm in the mood to share money) think that there should be a nominating process, instead of 1 person's bias because I would think that would illustrate more of their "fame". Another :2cents:
-
Sias has to be a lock for the hall in my opinion. His 2003 side battle deck alone would have been good enoguh in my book, plus his career wins.
Second choice would have to be Maly. Having playtested and read some design notes a bit, I am convinced his strategies starte the slippery slope of the Garden Tomb, Gabe just made it very popular, so for the first induction, I'd vote Maly.
Contirubtors go to Mike Berkenpas (ok, so I'm in his playgroup, big deal) and Bryon Hake. Rob should be an auto bid in my opinion. Next year Schaef and Bany would be inducted. After that, a real discussion begins about which hosts has contributed the most to the game. A lot of them have done so much.
-
For contributors, I must point out that there is one big contender you are leaving out:
Please PM me with these suggestions. I like yours, and suspect he'll be there someday.
I honestly think Rob should be auto and not have him take up a slot.
I thought about this as well, but to be fair, I want everyone to be voted in.
Plus, I think more than one player should be added per year.
We are going to be adding 4 players this year, and 2 players each subsequent year. Considering the small player base of Redemption, I think that is probably a reasonable number.
there should be a nominating process, instead of 1 person's bias
I also like a nominating process (which is why I'm requesting PMs). I just started off with these to get the ball rolling faster. My goal is to go ahead and get the first 4 people in at this "mid-year" time, and then use the nominating process to get a slate of people for our next vote right before Nats '10. Going forward, I think voting people in right before Nats is the way to go so that we can honor them there.
-
Gabe Isbell – [T1-2p (x2), T2-2p, Teams] - Forced Redemption to create TGT to stop his T1 defense, and the hand limit to stop his T2 combo.
Umm, I don't think this description is true. Gabe would be the first to tell you that the Sin in the Camp deck wasn't his idea and I'm confident it wasn't just Gabe's deck that inspired Garden Tomb. Surely you can find a better, more accurate description of Gabe's prowess.
Also, I think Justin Alstad should be noted for having pioneered what became the modern speed deck.
In addition, I think the list is probably a pretty good list to go off of but I feel like Rob and people of his ilk should be contacted regarding who should be on the list. I'm not trying to offend you but you have only been around the game for short time compared to people like Rob and Hake. To be honest, it should be Rob who makes the list of eligible people.
-
Gabe would be the first to tell you that the Sin in the Camp deck wasn't his idea
SitC decks have been around for 3 years at least. The rule change didn't happen until Gabe made it viable enough to win Nats with.
and I'm confident it wasn't just Gabe's deck that inspired Garden Tomb.
Bryon disagrees when talking about playtesting TGT.
I built a Garden Tomb deck and a Judges Seat deck and a Throne of David deck and a House at Bethany Luke/John convert deck, and a Stronghold in the Desert deck. Every single one of those decks was designed to punish one deck: the Gabe nats-winning deck from 2007. I built his deck card-for-card and had players testing it against all of these decks for months, 5-6 days a week, multiple games a day.
Also, I think Justin Alstad should be noted for having pioneered what became the modern speed deck.
You are the 2nd person to say this. 1 person said that credit goes to Quadfather. If I get a more definite sense of which way to go with this, I'll add it in there :)
-
OK, I basically just disagree with everything you just said. I'm not going to bother arguing.
-
OK, I basically just disagree with everything you just said. I'm not going to bother arguing.
Not sure why you said that when he gave his reasons. but oh well.
I agree with Sean on Justin. his SpEaDfReAk deck was the pioneer of all speed decks. Even if he didnt create it ( I dont know about all the buisness with the Quadfather and who made it first) he still won t1 Multi with it at Nats and that is why it has become the dominant deck design in t1 Multi. If you are going to say Gabe gets the credit for the hand limit rule due to his piloting of someone elses deck, then surely Justin deserves the same credit for the whole Speed movement even if it wasn't a deck he specifically designed.
You will have to ask him about whether he came up with it first or not, but either way, he is the one who won with it.
Also, i'd like to see a nomination process. This just seems to be a list of people you know and respect in redemption, but, with all due respect, redemption is bigger than your circle. I would be willing to bet that there are other more qualified applicants than these, especially from yesteryear past, and opening up a nomination process will allow others to make those people known.
-
quadfather was the forefather of the offense heavy decks, usually straight fight by the numbers and no defense. however, it wasnt the speed that we see today.
justin was indeed the main pioneer behind the true speed deck. people were also using stand-alone far before gabe.
-
NEW INORFORMATION:gabe did not ask clifft about it well srry gabe.my bad.
-
OK, I basically just disagree with everything you just said. I'm not going to bother arguing
hahaha that's funny.
Not sure why you said that when he gave his reasons. but oh well
Because
SitC decks have been around for 3 years at least. The rule change didn't happen until Gabe made it viable enough to win Nats with.
That is not true. Clift made the deck and tested it for three years, Gabe and him exchanged emails about the deck and Gabe played with it at nationals. Not taking anything away from Gabe's skill and using that complicated of a deck and doing what he did with it with not much practice deserves credit. But three years of testing one deck also deserves credit.
I also think Eric Largent needs to be in the nominee and once he gets in there my vote is for him.
-
i also dont see how you can have even a half-credible list without first having a proper nomination. this is pretty much just all bias otherwise.
-
For Player, I vote:
- Justin Alstad: I've played him more T2 than anyone else outside CA, and his constant wins have made him the guy to beat in my book. And that T2 MP game we attempted over AIM with Kirk was legen -- wait for it -- dary.
- Gabe: He's also the king of online play. I've played him on here a handful of times, and each time I've been destroyed. He's good.
(Although I agree that Ron Sias should be up here, I think I'm still upset that the others in our T2MP game at Nats ganged up against the west coast kid and let him grab soul #7 before my timeout win. Sigh. Maybe next voting season.)
For Contributor, I vote:
- Rob: Being the creator of the game is pretty hard to vote against.
- Bryon: the Californian must vote for our amazing host, but his consistent online presence to help us through the rules, as well as the Nats wins he himself has pulled off, make a pretty solid case for his nomination.
-
Players:
Ron Sias -- What an amazing amount of events... I mean can you really argue against that? ;D
Bryon Hake -- Two T2 national wins in a row doesn't qualify you to be on the list of hall of famers, eh? Considering he has an undefeated two nationals participated in resulting in two national wins, I think he qualifies.
If not: Justin Alstad -- He has an amazing amount of creativity, but he also wins with it. And in both categories.
Contributors:
Bryon! -- Haha it's obvious we all know how much he does for redemption, how much he tries to increase the players base and how many cards he's made for all of us. He deserves it.
Rob -- This is a shoe-in but I guess we have to use a vote on it... so obviously.
-
This just seems to be a list of people you know and respect in redemption
Actually, I don't know some of these people at all (Keith Bartram, Joshua Hey, Sam Nurge), and others minimally (Eric Kimmons, Ron Sias). Again, this is just a starting point. This list is made of people who just obviously belong to be there. Probably all of them will end up in the Redemption Hall of Fame eventually. These players have all won the National Tournament multiple times. They have been dominant in their eras (or some of them across eras). These contributors are virtually all in the select group of playtesters, and commonly known to everyone. We'll do the ballot thing in the spring, don't worry. I don't think that anyone's going to be upset about any 4 of these people being in the Redemption Hall of Fame. How about cutting me some slack for trying to be objective here :)
Bryon Hake -- Two T2 national wins in a row
Thanks for pointing that out. Info added.
-
Gee, this is fun. Can we do a Hall of Shame next?
-
Gee, this is fun. Can we do a Hall of Shame next?
Sure. Nominees:
YourMathTeacher
Vote for exactly one of the above. I'll accept write-ins next time.
-
Gee, this is fun. Can we do a Hall of Shame next?
Sure. Nominees:
YourMathTeacher
Vote for exactly one of the above. I'll accept write-ins next time.
You guys are funny :)
On a more serious note, doesn't anyone else out there have stories about these people?
-
Probably all of them will end up in the Redemption Hall of Fame eventually.
Why do we even vote then? Let's just put 'em in.
I don't think that anyone's going to be upset about any 4 of these people being in the Redemption Hall of Fame.
I think being the first group into the Redemption Hall of Fame is a big deal IF we are supposed to take it seriously. If this is just going to be one of those good samaritan, let's do it for fun, this would be cool, kind of thing then I'm fine with whatever. I don't think that's the same as taking it seriously.
-
IMO, you really need to expand the size of the initial class of inductees. Is anyone going to seriously argue that any of the names you mentioned does not belong in a HoF? If you limit membership to four starters and then two per year thereafter, we won't clear out the current list until 2014 or beyond.
That said, I would vote for...
Players:
Justin Alstad
Gabe Isbell
Eric Kimmons
Tim Maly
Ron Sias
(I would vote for the others, but I have never played against them.)
Contributors:
Rob Anderson
Chris Bany
Mike Berkenpas
Roy Cruz
Doug Gray
Bryon Hake
John Michaliszyn
Stephen Schaefer
I could add other names to both lists, but the only oversight that truly bothers me is not including Bill Voigt under contributors.
-
I would like to nominate the president of TKP, GotCranberriesQuestionmark as a contributor to the game.
-
I would like to nominate the president of TKP, GotCranberriesQuestionmark as a contributor to the game.
LOL, I'm not sure if Prof Underwood knows about TKP. Was he around with the old boards?
-
Gabe would be the first to tell you that the Sin in the Camp deck wasn't his idea
btw gabe ASKED cliff crysell if he could use ztomb and SITC.cuz cliff told me.
Clift made the deck and tested it for three years, Gabe and him exchanged emails about the deck and Gabe played with it at nationals.
Just to clear up any confusion on these points...
@ Sean - correct, I built a SitC deck once and it was terrible. Clift gets 100% credit for the amazing design that won Nationals. 0% Gabe.
@ Red - That is not true. I didn't ask Clift. He posted his SitC deck on these boards and asked that someone play it. I saw his decklist, tried it and realized it was crazy awesome so I played it. However, T1 ZTomb is 100% my deck. To my knowledge Clift had nothing to do with that deck.
@ Hiatus - You'd know better than anyone how long and hard Clift worked on the SitC deck to bring it to perfection. Although I sent him a PM with questions about the deck he didn't get it. It wasn't until between rounds at Nationals when you called him and put us on the phone together that I ever got to talk to Clift about it.
______________________________________________
I have to agree with the folks that mention that we need to come up with a longer list of candidates. Some very deserving people have been left off the player and contributor list. You almost have to take into consideration how long a person has been playing, RNRS titles, and how many Nationals a person has had the chance to attend. If we're only going to base the players their on Nationals performance, lets at least take a look at people who made the top 3 repeatedly. Anyone who's played at Nationals will tell you that is no small accomplishment! :) There are many noteworthy players who are in the top three time and time again but absent from the ballot. For contributors you're missing Kevin Shride, Bill Voigt, Mike Wolfe just to name a few.
I don't deserve to be on the player list if people like Kevin Shride, Nathan Voigt, Danile Whitten, Erik Largent, Tyler Stevens, Ben Shadrick and others aren't on there. In '07 I started out 1-2, then went on to finish 8-2, the biggest loser to ever win Nationals. In '09 I asked God for the chance to show the kids in CA how important Jesus is. He chose to give me the opportunity to talk to them publically through winning a couple events, either of which I could have easily finished outside the top 3.
Votes and stories...
Ron Sias gets my first vote. Besides being a living Redemption legend, winning more events than anyone, more types than anyone and over a longer period of time than anyone - he's an outstanding guy. If you've never had a chance to talk to Ron, look him up at the next Nationals. He probably wouldn't like me telling this story but... I saw him trading a kid one of his FSPs for a couple of the new local promos. The kid asked Kevin Shride and I if it was a fair trade (they had no idea). We told the kid to take the FSP and run! :) That's just a small example of the quality of character you get with Ron.
Justin Alstad gets my second vote. He's done a number of things that have shaped the game we play today in both T1 and T2. He has a lot of top 3 National finishes under his belt. He's always a challenge to play against too. One thing I like about Justin is his willingness to openly share ideas and help people with strategy, deck building and card combos. Some might think a player of his caliber would keep that kind of information to them self, but that's not Justin.
This is not a vote, but I must mention that Sam Nurge is a man of outstanding character. He doesn't lose often but when he does lose he does it with class. Even after our game at Nationals when we found out that there had been a bad ruling that may have changed the outcome, Sam was a gentlemen. Many people, myself included, may not have reacted the same way.
Bryon Hake - Always giving back to the game and doing it with class. Loves what he does and does it well.
Chris Bany - Responsible (both directly and indirectly) for the largest population of Redemption players anywhere (Minnesota). Has caused Redemption to change the rules because of his creativity and abuse. A tough competitor when he plays. Judges and host more than anyone.
-
im suprised to not see brian cooper on the nomination list. seriously, who has more fame than brian cooper? :)
-
im suprised to not see brian cooper on the nomination list. seriously, who has more fame than brian cooper? :)
Maybe he belongs in the Hall of Shame with me.
-
I'll be abstaining from this. It still looks like a list of big tournament winners to me. We already have a hall-of-fame-type-thing for that. Ron may have won a bunch of categories, but what has he actually done for the game? People aren't voted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame based on record sales.
-
I'll be abstaining from this. It still looks like a list of big tournament winners to me. We already have a hall-of-fame-type-thing for that. Ron may have won a bunch of categories, but what has he actually done for the game? People aren't voted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame based on record sales.
A couple of things here
1. This is another good reason to have a broader nomination process in place before we vote on actuall hall of fame members.
2. There is more than one hall of fame to model this process over. Several hall of fames look at the overall body of work (which could include wins) such as the Baseball, Basketball and Football hall of fames. Since redemption is more like a competition/sport than it is a artisit process (such as music) I would not be surprised to see many people who WIN be placed in the Hall of Fame. In addition to that, The way it is set up now, one whole category of nominees are being nominated for their innovation, support and contribution to the game. If that does not fit your criteria then I dont know what will.
-
srry gabe i'll modafy my post now.
-
im suprised to not see brian cooper on the nomination list. seriously, who has more fame than brian cooper? :)
Coop is infamous, famous. ;)
-
first vote: Ron Sias. I think the destroyer deck from waay back was his idea... he broke the game. congrats. brilliant. and he's an awesome guy, and a legend. (somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I know Bany played with the deck, but I was pretty sure Sias built it?)
second vote: Justin Alstad. great guy, and really, Mike Turnage (Quadrate) would get my vote, but since he isn't on the list... Justin. where would redemption be without speed?
contributers:
first vote: Mike Berkanpas. keeper of the REG.
second vote: Roy Cruz. honestly, he's such an awesome person, he's definitely one of my favorite people at nats, and he's very generous.
-
In addition to that, The way it is set up now, one whole category of nominees are being nominated for their innovation, support and contribution to the game.
Who is on that list? Playtesters, Cactus employees, Forum mods, and wholesalers. Who is not on that list? The guy who popularized/invented competitive decks with no Heroes. Credibility: zero.
-
Don't most Halls of Fame, if not all, require that the entrant be out of the game for awhile?
If so, I vote Josh Hey. I heard stories that he was so good he got bored and left the game. :o
-
If so, I vote Josh Hey. I heard stories that he was so good he got bored and left the game.
Josh Hey left because he was not happy with the metagame.
-
Players in my opinion should be decided based on thier playing prowess, so clearly all the guys mentioned should be there.
Contributors, I agree with Pol, should extend to those who have changed the game. Under that argument, people such as Ron Sias (side battles deck, 4 player solitaire), Kopp (heroless), Justin (Speed Freak), and maybe even Gabe (Modern Speed) should be included in that list in my opinion.
-
Gee, isn't this fun? How about a Hall of Blame next?
-
I considered adding Josh Kopp to my "if he was on there..." thing, but I thought I'd only mention the Quadrate. RR definitely deserves nomination.
Gee, isn't this fun? How about a Hall of Blame next?
or a Hall of Lame... wait, what?
-
A Hall of Flame for these boards. :-\
-
Gee, isn't this fun? How about a Hall of Blame next?
or a Hall of Lame... wait, what?
A Hall of Flame for these boards. :-\
In any of these cases, I nominate myself.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with STAMP in the definition of Hall of Fame. Voting on active players will always lead to bias. I would vote for Roy because he is the only one I have actually met, and also for Gabe just because he looks like Adonijah.
Sports do not vote active players into the Hall for a reason. If they did, then players like Fernando Valenzeula and Dwight Gooden would have been locks. Instead, this type of voting only leads to the bickering that we have in this thread about who created what achetype. Seriously, should Nolan Ryan not be included in the Baseball Hall of Fame because he didn't invent the fastball?
-
Seriously, should Nolan Ryan not be included in the Baseball Hall of Fame because he didn't invent the fastball?
I invented the fastball. Nolan Ryan only perfected it.
-
Don't most Halls of Fame, if not all, require that the entrant be out of the game for awhile?
Now I understand why you announced your retirement, STAMP. That was fairly devious, even for you. Well played. ;)
-
A Hall of Flame for these boards. :-\
that was win. but Colin's banned now... ... ... :-\
-
Seriously, should Nolan Ryan not be included in the Baseball Hall of Fame because he didn't invent the fastball?
I invented the fastball. Nolan Ryan only perfected it.
Who perfected it? ;)
Randy Johnson Hits A Bird (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeSm6ya4ww8#)
-
Nolan Ryan only perfected it.
Some would say Bob Feller perfected it. We are still biased by proximity. Regardless, a handful of other players had a 100-mph fastball and yet have no chance of being in the Hall (Billy Koch for example).
If we want a true Hall of Fame, then only players/contributors who are no longer a part of Redemption would qualify. Is Ron Sias no longer in Redemption? If yes, the he gets my vote. Anyone that can win that many titles using cards from the first few sets must be a legend. For contributors, isn't Doug Gray out of the scene? If so, then he also gets my vote. His name is on many of the cards as an artist, he started a website for buying singles, his prices were a standard for trading, and he was the tournament guru for some time.
Are there others that have similar credentials? Sure. Are the others still involved in playing/contributing? If so, then they should not be on the ballot. Otherwise we will not have a Hall of Fame, but only a Corridor of Superlatives.
-
For contributors, isn't Doug Gray out of the scene? If so, then he also gets my vote.
+1
-
Guys, if you have problems with this voting process don't do it. It's Prof Underwood's idea and you should respect that he has a way he wants to do it. It's not an official thing with Cactus it's a REALLY COOL thing Prof Underwood did by himself. If you want it changed make a new "change the game hall of fame" on your own time, but stop wasting space in this thread for your useless criticisms.
Also, I have NO idea why everyone says a hall of fame is for people who changed the game only. Emmit Smith is in the Hall of Fame because he did the exact same thing everyone else did BETTER than almost everyone else did. Yeah, Barry Sanders is possibly the inventor of the modern day spin move, but he's in the hall of fame because he got a rookie of the year award, at least one MVP, and has the most consecutive games with over 100 yards. He also stayed on the top for about 10 years.
So to say Ron Sias shouldn't be in the hall of fame because he didn't "do something to change the game," you've got to be kidding me.
-
....but stop wasting space in this thread for your useless criticisms.
Irony
-
....but stop wasting space in this thread for your useless criticisms.
Irony
Double Irony. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
-
You'd know better than anyone how long and hard Clift worked on the SitC deck to bring it to perfection. Although I sent him a PM with questions about the deck he didn't get it. It wasn't until between rounds at Nationals when you called him and put us on the phone together that I ever got to talk to Clift about it.
Wow I did not know that or forgot about it. Even more props then for playing that deck how you did.
-
i vote for gabe
-
In my mind no one is more deserving of being here than Bill Voigt
-
I can't even take this thread seriously if Wild Bill is not on the roster.
-
I can't even take this thread seriously if Wild Bill is not on the roster.
We can't take this thread seriously if Wild Bill IS on the roster. ;)
But seriously, if we draw straws I'm sure he'll make it in. :D
-
this list is seriously missing alot of heavy contenders.
-
this list is seriously missing alot of heavy contenders.
At 230 pounds, I may qualify as a heavy contender, but I certainly don't belong in Hall of Fame voting.
-
Hey,
this list is seriously missing alot of heavy contenders.
A legitimate argument can be made that Bill Voigt, Eric Largent, and Kevin Shride should be on the lists. I can't think of any other player, not on the list, that would have a serious shot at finishing top 4 in voting.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Hey,
I would vote for ... Gabe just because he looks like Adonijah.
This type of voting is the reason the best player in college football (Ndamukong Suh) didn't win the Heisman this year :P
I agree with STAMP in the definition of Hall of Fame. Voting on active players will always lead to bias.
Sports do not vote active players into the Hall for a reason.
I agree that voting on active players is problematic. But if we eliminate active players from consideration only three of the sixteen names on Prof's list would still be eligible, that is also problematic. Perhaps a requirement that their career started at least five years ago would work as a compromise? (of course all that would do to the players list is eliminate Gabe :D )
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Gabe and Justin have my votes. Though I agree with those who have been stating that there is quite a few other players who deserve mentioning.
Reasoning has basically been stated earlier on in the thread, and thus does not need repeating.
And I saw my name in a post, thank you Gabe. :D
-
Wild Bill should most def be on there. I'd vote for him.
-
I agree that voting on active players is problematic. But if we eliminate active players from consideration only three of the sixteen names on Prof's list would still be eligible, that is also problematic.
I see that as a solution, not a problem.
-
several of the guys listed i know of:
gabe, justin,rob, doug, bany, andtim maly
i vote for all those guys
gabe cause: he's been one of my supporters, is a multi-time national champ,a great player to go to for help and a great player period, and also a wonderful friend to me even if i had my good times and bad times
Justin cause: he's just that awesome
tim maly: cause he's a great player and gave us the infamous moment of "The Kiss" XD along with gabe
Rob cause: he made the game for what it is and if it wasn't for him i wouldn't be on these boards or even have as much friends as i do from all over the country
doug cause: he's a fair guy and deserves a place in the Redemption hall of fame
bany cause: he's the heart and soul of the redemption community in minnesota and the reason why it's such a red hot game in the state of Minnesota and i do wish he could move to other states where redemption is cold so the entire country could also become as hot as it in in Minnesota
-
surprised to not see kory lentine on the list, considering he was a huge contributor to the game and also retired. his brother-in-law should also be on the list, but his name escapes me (jason something i think?), as they both were huge contributors to the game not just in KC, but as a whole as well.
-
Andy, you need to read the rules before you vote. 4 max.
-
I like how Raven voted for the guys he knew.
several of the guys listed i know of:
gabe, justin,rob, doug, bany, andtim maly
i vote for all those guys
but yes, 4.
-
I like how Raven voted for the guys he knew
And this is truly different than how most people have been voting? I would guess that the vast majority of votes cast were for candidates known by the voter, which is precisely why Hall of Fames do not vote in active players. Proximity is the bias that is difficult to avoid in these situations.
-
Hey,
Generally the people inducted into a hall of fame are voted on by a select group of voters rather than by the general public. That is something we could consider, although I think it would mostly defeat the point of this thread.
Perhaps players could list all of the players on the list that they have been exposed to and then vote for two out of that subset of the list. The "winners" would then be those that were voted for by the greatest percentage of people that were exposed to them. That way Joshua Hey's chances to be selected wouldn't be hindered by the fact that 85% of active players have never attended a tournament he was at.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
i have. :)
-
I like how Raven voted for the guys he knew
And this is truly different than how most people have been voting? I would guess that the vast majority of votes cast were for candidates known by the voter, which is precisely why Hall of Fames do not vote in active players. Proximity is the bias that is difficult to avoid in these situations.
but only the guys he knew. so everybody he knew on the list, he voted for. I guess I should have said "I like how Raven voted for everybody that he knew."
-
but only the guys he knew. so everybody he knew on the list, he voted for. I guess I should have said "I like how Raven voted for everybody that he knew."
I did that way back on page 3 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298829#msg298829 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298829#msg298829)).
Everybody I know that is on the list of nominees deserves to be in, so I voted for all of them. Prof Underwood can adjust the weighting of my votes so they add up to two each.
-
Generally the people inducted into a hall of fame are voted on by a select group of voters rather than by the general public.
This is a good point. I'm trying to balance things a bit by putting up a list of people who all seem to be deserving and then let the general public vote. That gives everyone a voice, while also not letting a local playgroup of 20 guys to get their person in there.
If you limit membership to four starters and then two per year thereafter, we won't clear out the current list until 2014
This is also a good point. Perhaps, we should elect 4 per year. The problem is that Redemption has been going for 15 years, and there's probably only about 30 people total that the majority would agree deserve to be in a HoF. If we vote in too many each year, then we will reach a point in the future where the people voted in might not match up with the earlier inductees.
LOL, I'm not sure if Prof Underwood knows about TKP.
I am aware of The Krazy People and their infamous shenanigans :)
Votes and stories...
Finally someone else with stories. Thanks for contributing.
It's not an official thing with Cactus it's a REALLY COOL thing Prof Underwood did by himself.
Thanks for the props, and understanding :)
if we eliminate active players from consideration only three of the sixteen names on Prof's list would still be eligible
Which is why I am not using that limitation. I will limit it to people who have been playing for at least 3 years though.
-
Quadrate, RR, Wild Bill, Eric "no pants" Largent, Kevin Shride, Daniel Witten
These are all good examples of people who are likely to replace the first 4 inductees on the candidate lists.
They are also examples of people whose names should have been PM'd to me instead of posted in this thread. When you post names it makes people who don't get their name posted feel left out. Please just PM me in the future. That way everyone can assume that they also got PM'd to me, but that other people simply got more votes :)
-
Hey,
Having played seven of the eight players on the list (or six of the eight if I don't count myself) I'm in a unique position to evaluate the talent of the various individuals. I'd like to share some experiences and statistics about the various people on the list as per Prof Underwood's desire. I'll post my comments about each player in a separate post (I'll probably post about 1 per day for the rest of the week).
Tschow,
Tim “Sir Nobody” Maly
-
They are also examples of people whose names should have been PM'd to me instead of posted in this thread. When you post names it makes people who don't get their name posted feel left out. Please just PM me in the future. That way everyone can assume that they also got PM'd to me, but that other people simply got more votes :)
The problem with this goes back to the proximity bias. Some people recognize names better either from distance proximity (they play in my state) or time proximity (they just won Nationals). Once other names are mentioned, the "oh yeah, I forgot about them" syndrome starts to appear. I think a more fair decision is likely if all the names are out there, since you are not going to use normal "Hall of Fame" protocols.
-
Joshua Hey (2001-2004) –
Contrary to Prof Underwood's description, Joshua Hey actually played more Type 1 in his career than he did Type 2. His 2-player category of choice was Type 1 for all but the last year that he played. While Quadrate introduced the win before you lose side of speed, and Justin popularized the draw like a mad fool side of speed, Joshua Hey was the first to combine the two into the sort of speed deck that is so popular today. You could say that Joshua Hey was the link between Quadrate and Justin in the progression of the speed deck over the years.
Statistics:
At Nationals 2004, Joshua Hey placed 1st in T2-MP, 1st in T2-2P and 3rd in T1-MP making him one of only three people to have ever placed in three different categories in the same national tournament.
Joshua Hey is one of only three players to have placed in all four open categories at nationals.
Between Nationals 2003 and Nationals 2004 Joshua Hey placed in five events winning three of them.
Joshua Hey was 4th in lifetime RNRS points in 2004 when he quit playing Redemption.
Anecdote:
I played Joshua Hey in T1-2P at Nationals in 2002. It was the second to last round, he was in 4th place and I was in 5th place going into the game. The game was moving along when a ruling question came up. We called over a judge who ruled incorrectly (I had read the exact rule in the REG a week earlier so I was quite sure what the ruling should be) so I appealed to Rob. Rob wasn't sure on the ruling so we were told to continue as ruled and Rob went to look and see if he could find the rule in the REG. Ten minutes later we were informed that they found the ruling in the REG and the ruling that was made had indeed been incorrect. The game ended up a 5-4 win for him, with the incorrect ruling appearing to be the deciding factor. Joshua Hey admitted to Rob that he would not have won the game if the ruling had been made correctly and very graciously accepted a reversal in the games final score which effectively ended his chances of winning nationals (with the win he would have been sitting in 2nd place half a point behind the leader and headed for a final round game with Keith that would have determined the winner of the event).
-
They are also examples of people whose names should have been PM'd to me instead of posted in this thread. When you post names it makes people who don't get their name posted feel left out.
Says the man who started this entire thread by posting a bunch of names and asked people to vote for their favorites. ;)
-
We don't need no steenking list! PM to be sent. ;)
-
I'm in a unique position to evaluate the talent of the various individuals. I'd like to share some experiences and statistics about the various people on the list as per Prof Underwood's desire.
This is EXACTLY the type of thing I'm looking for, and I really enjoyed reading your first one about Josh Hey. Thanks!
We don't need no steenking list! PM to be sent. ;)
PM received, but I'm not actually taking votes on current candidates yet. Feel free to PM me with ideas to be added to the list of future candidates though :).
-
LOL, I'm not sure if Prof Underwood knows about TKP.
I am aware of The Krazy People and their infamous shenanigans :)
I'm not aware of any group named The Krazy People. there is, however, a group named The Karazy People.
-
Keith Bartram (1999-2002) -
The fact that Keith Bartram has not yet been mentioned in this thread proves the bias towards contemporary players. Keith Bartram played in a different era. By my estimation, only eight members of this board have ever met Keith Bartram, and only three of those have ever played against him. When Keith Bartram quit playing: the message board we used was a usenet group (rec.games.trading-cards.misc) and the ezboard hadn't even been created yet, the RNRS system had just been created and tournaments were few and far between, and Patriarchs was the most recently released set. But in his era, Keith Bartram could not have been more dominant.
Statistics:
Keith Bartram is the only player to win the main event at nationals (T1-2P) three times.
Only two players have attended nationals more than once and won an event every year they attended; Keith Bartram is one of them.
Keith Bartram won T1-2P at every national tournament he attended.
Anecdote:
The only time I ever played Keith Bartram was in the seventh round of T1-2P at Nationals in 2002. I don't remember very much about the game. I just remember that his offense was very similar to mine. And that he tore a Haman's Plot against me; and when he tore it, he took it out of the sleeve, folded it in half, bent it back and forth along the crease, then carefully tore it where it had been weakened tearing the card exactly in half. He won the game 5-3.
-
we need to make cards for these guys like mtg does.
-
i played bartram at nationals 2003 (or 2002, whichever was in minnesota). we were using practically the exact same deck. my only loss that nationals was to him, putting me in 2nd place.
-
02 Was MN, 03 Was Pittsburg.
-
Hey,
i played bartram at nationals 2003 (or 2002, whichever was in minnesota). we were using practically the exact same deck. my only loss that nationals was to him, putting me in 2nd place.
It was 2002. Were you using plots that year? That's what I remember being his edge that year, he checked in six decks and tore 5 plots. T1-2P was a really close event that year, six players had a chance of winning the tournament going into the last round.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
yuh, we all were. it was long ago, i just remember it being held in a gymnasium...bleachers...and a big michael cutout chris bany made where you could put your face in it and get your pic taken. heh, nostalgia.
-
gabe definitely knows what he is doing.... i vote for master kchief because of halo wars.. i mean wait nevermind.. :)
-
The fact that Keith Bartram has not yet been mentioned in this thread proves the bias towards contemporary players.
Finally someone agrees with me. ;)
-
what about kory lentine? only the old-skool players would know him, and he definately deserves to be in.
-
hey,
I would like to propose either a special vote or an automatic induction:
- For this first year only
- Reserved for Rob Anderson
- In addition to the other 2 votes regarding Contributor and Player
I have 3 more nominations that I haven't seen mentioned here, but I will save them for the 2010 nomination process.
L8er,
Gil
-
If you limit membership to four starters and then two per year thereafter, we won't clear out the current list until 2014
This is also a good point. Perhaps, we should elect 4 per year. The problem is that Redemption has been going for 15 years, and there's probably only about 30 people total that the majority would agree deserve to be in a HoF. If we vote in too many each year, then we will reach a point in the future where the people voted in might not match up with the earlier inductees.
hey,
My systematic approach demands I attempt to make this more complicated than it should be ;-)
Maybe the number of inductions from each category should be a tiered percentage of the number of nominations. For instance, it could be 1/4 of the number of nominations rounded up. 1-5=1, 6-9=2, 10-13=3, etc...
L8er,
Gil
-
I also agree that this first year should be special and that probably 12-16 people should be inducted with an emphasis on those in years past. After that the HOF should be limited to no more than 2 a year (one in each category) I dont have a problem with people still playing and being in the HOF, but our cocmmunity is not big enough for multiple years of 4+ HOF inductees.
I also belive that we should do it like the Baseball HOF does it where you dont get in unless you get a certain % of the total vote. So some years we have 2,3 or 4 voted in and some years we have none.
-
Keith Bartram (1999-2002) -
Thanks again Tim. These are so good that I'm linking the names on the 1st post to them. Please keep them coming, and if possible, a bit faster :)
this first year should be special and that probably 12-16 people should be inducted...After that the HOF should be limited to no more than 2 a year...you dont get in unless you get a certain % of the total vote.
These are some good points (from you and others who agree with you). My plan is to actually have the first 10 inductees by Nats 2010. I plan on having the vote on the first 4 inductees in January (representing 2009), then to have a nomination process during the spring, followed by another vote in the summer which will elect 6 more people (3 from each category).
Then in future years, we will probably limit it to 2 people (1 from each category), unless we decided to get all complicated for Gil :)
-
Hey,
If you limit membership to four starters and then two per year thereafter, we won't clear out the current list until 2014
I don't think that's a problem. Players have had about ten years to build up credentials to merit being in the hall of fame. It should take about ten years to get all of the deserving players in. I could see up to three players from each group plus Rob (who shouldn't be voted in in my opinion) in the first year, but anything more than that and anything more than one from each category per year will lead to us exhausting hall of fame candidates way too quickly.
Please keep them coming, and if possible, a bit faster :)
I'd love to do them faster, but they take more time to write than I expected, and my time this week just seems like it's been disappearing. I've also got another project that I need to work on today (which I expect you'll like even more than these little bios). But I should get Ron Sias posted sometime today.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Hey Tim,
I for one appreciate the articles and statistics. Being relatively new, I like to read about the players of the past. A part of me wish I had started the game sooner to see how the game evolved.
FWIW: If anything, you should be voted in for being Redemption's Semi-Official Historian (a Josephus of sorts :laugh:) I appreciate your work and statistics.
-
...Rob (who shouldn't be voted in in my opinion)...
What do you have against Rob? ;)
I also second what soul seeker said immediately above me.
-
Hey,
I nominate Gil to write Tim's bio, seeing as he's known him forever.
-
Since my dear brother has been mentioned several times in relation to his pioneering of the modern speed deck, I thought I would enlighten everyone to a brief history of the origins of the type.
The Alstads had been playing Redemption for a few years when we went to our first tournament in 2002, and met Mike Turnidge (The Quadfather). It was there we learned that a deck could win without defense, an entirely new concept to us. Maybe a year or so later, there was a contest on the EZBoard, hosted by a player who I cannot now remember. The idea was simple: construct a deck to find out how fast it could draw out. So Justin and I thought about some combos we could use, such as choosing an immune blocker, playing a horde of drawing cards, then Long Day, Stillness, repeat (there was no restriction on the same hero entering battle more than once back then). When we tested the deck with Justin using it and myself using a balanced offense and defense, Justin was successfully able to draw out in one turn, then go on to win the game. Thus we won the contest, and split the prize, since we had both come up with ideas.
Later, Justin realized that that type of deck probably wouldn't do so bad in general, since you would get your SoG/NJ/AotL faster than most people, and assuming you could ensure your opponent had LS's to rescue somehow (Hopper, Harvest Time, etc.) you could probably win before your opponent could stop you. We had already seen a huge offense with lots of heroes and battle winners win games, ala the Quadfather, now Justin was just adding the element of drawing your good cards as fast as you could. When he went on to win T1 MP with his deck, the type came to national prominence.
I do not know of any influence Josh Hey had on the process, but Justin knew him much better than I did, so it is certainly possible.
-
Maybe a year or so later, there was a contest on the EZBoard, hosted by Sean. The idea was simple: construct a deck to find out how fast it could draw out.
Fixed. :)
-
Ah right, it was you. You had your old board name then, but I actually do remember that. Well now you know (if you didn't already) that you played a significant role in the development of Speed as a Redemption archetype. Now the question is, does that make you proud or sad? :)
-
I nominate Sean to the Hall of Fame based on his role in helping create the greatest archetype in Redemption history - Speed!
-
Hey,
I nominate Sean to the Hall of Fame based on his role in helping create the most evil archetype in Redemption history - Speed!
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
I nominate Sean
I nominate Sean
I would still appreciate nominations to be sent by PM. And SirNobody, I'd appreciate a few more bios when you get the chance :)
-
Well now you know (if you didn't already) that you played a significant role in the development of Speed as a Redemption archetype. Now the question is, does that make you proud or sad?
I knew, but I try to not help people remember.
-
Well now you know (if you didn't already) that you played a significant role in the development of Speed as a Redemption archetype. Now the question is, does that make you proud or sad?
I knew, but I try to not help people remember.
Maybe a year or so later, there was a contest on the EZBoard, hosted by Sean. The idea was simple: construct a deck to find out how fast it could draw out.
Fixed. :)
If this is how you try to not help people remember, you're really bad at it. ;)
-
Prof, Is there an open nominaton process here? If so when will the nominations be closed? And when it is closed and we actually vote on the HOF, can we close this thread and start a new one where each person has a Bio written by someone else so that all the members of the board can see the contribiutions of some of the older pioneers of the game standing alongside those that may be more familiar.
-
Well now you know (if you didn't already) that you played a significant role in the development of Speed as a Redemption archetype. Now the question is, does that make you proud or sad?
I knew, but I try to not help people remember.
Maybe a year or so later, there was a contest on the EZBoard, hosted by Sean. The idea was simple: construct a deck to find out how fast it could draw out.
Fixed. :)
If this is how you try to not help people remember, you're really bad at it. ;)
Good point.
-
Darcy Abbott
Not sure if I spelled his name properly but he ran the Jacob's Ladder for a good deal of time, hosted many tournament in NC, and I think was also involved in play testing.
-
Darcy Abbott
Not sure if I spelled his name properly but he ran the Jacob's Ladder for a good deal of time, hosted many tournament in NC, and I think was also involved in play testing.
I always spelled it D-J...so much easier for me. ;)
-
i nominate presidentorangebus, and brian cooper.
-
I just don't see how Brian Cooper can beat Rob Anderson...
-
brian cooper has his own card. rob anderson doesnt. :)
-
Rob Anderson created the game. Brian Cooper didn't. :D
-
brian cooper burned his game. rob anderson...didnt. :D :D :D
-
Prof, Is there an open nominaton process here?
Yes the process is that if someone thinks that someone should be considered for the Redemption Hall of Fame, then they PM me with their suggestion (and reason if they like).
If so when will the nominations be closed?
Since the nomination process is for the vote that will be in summer 2010, the process will remain open for several more months. No hurry. And I do plan to have a bio for each nominee posted as soon as qualified people like Sir Nobody finish writing them. :)
-
i nominate presidentorangebus, and brian cooper.
:D
as awesome as these people are, OB already won President of the TKP, so he really doesn't need to win a lesser award. and Brian Cooper could win the imfamous one... ...brian cooper burned his game. rob anderson...didnt. :D :D :D
:D
-
Eric “Gil” Kimmons (1997-2003, 2007-Present) -
Gil was the first player to really push the limits of Redemption. He used Tower on Silly Women to get himself initiative with a 0/0 evil character prompting the rule change that made */* an identifier that can't be negated. He used Kingdoms of this World and Goshen to circumvent the duplicates in play rules forcing a change to the duplicates in play rules. He was the first to abuse Gathering of Angels with The Strong Angel which lead to the eventual change making The Strong Angel unique. In 2001, he built a deck designed to discard his opponent's draw pile by forcing Evil Spawn to fight against Evil Spawn in side battle after side battle after side battle (Gil's deck didn't end up working very well, but the strategy proved to be effective three years later when Ron built the devastator with the same goal in mind). He played a role in the creation of the most well known errata in existence (Holy Grail). He contributed to the development of the deck that changed the way we understand “Breaking the game.” And I imagine there are more major rules that he had a hand in establishing that I have forgotten to mention or am not aware of. Gil knew the rules of the game better than anyone else that played the game, and used that knowledge to his advantage.
Statistics:
Gil is one of only two players to have won an event at four different national tournaments and the only player to win an event at four consecutive national tournaments.
Contributions:
Gil hosted a local tournament in 1998 that had more than twice at many participants (26) as the national tournament in 1998 had (10). This is the only tournament, that I am aware of, that outdrew that year's national tournament.
The longest-running playgroup in the nation (WildCard) has been hosted/run by Gil since 1998.
Gil compiled a rules Q and A in the late 90's that was used by Mike Berkenpas as a starting point for the first REG (which was actually called the FAQ at the time).
Anecdote:
During the 2001 North Central Regional Tournament a ruling question came up that no one was quite sure about. Gil went over to the stuff he'd brought, pulled out a stack of at least a hundred pages or rules questions and answers, and within a few minutes found a ruling made by Doug Gray (one of the three official voices at the time) on the exact issue in question.
While I'm sure I've played at least a hundred games against Gil over the years surprisingly few of them stand out as uniquely memorable experiences. I have dozens of memories of great Redemption moments with Gil, but somehow none of them happened while playing against him. The one game that does stand out a little bit from the rest is the game we played in Type 2 – 2 Player at the Nebraska State Tournament in 2003. That year we had stumbled onto an amazing deck idea and had been working, somewhat together somewhat independently, on implementing the idea for several months. As we played against each other, we discussed the decks we were playing with; their weaknesses, how they could be improved, what we liked best about them. While sitting there trying to stop each others decks, we were at the same time giving each other advice on how to improve the deck we were playing against.
-
Why the 4 year break in the middle? Did Gil continue to host 'WildCard' during this time?
-
Hey,
Why the 4 year break in the middle? Did Gil continue to host 'WildCard' during this time?
I think I'll make Gil give the explanation of the four year break. I haven't really heard him explain it since it happened in 03 (I don't think). I was there, so I know the general reason, but I'm not entirely sure of the specifics.
The break was an abstention from hosting and participating in tournaments, not from Redemption entirely. He still played casually (although far, far, far less than he did before the break) and still hosted WildCard.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
To expand a bit on Gil's nomination: when I started playing in June of '98, I became a dedicated student of the game. I devoured every piece of ruling info I could find. Gil's collection of rulings was very helpful, and was one of the three places that I went for info.
Gil was the defending back-to-back T2 2-player national champion the year I went to my first nationals. I was paired against him in my first round. I figured I was toast, until I saw what he had decided to use for defense: site lockout with white sites. I happened to be using Elders of Jerusalem. He told me he ALMOST decided to use green sites, but had decided on white, figuring it was the least used color at the time. I am not certain, but I think he went on to win the rest of his games that tournament.
-
Let the VOTING begin!
Day 1
Please remember to only vote for 2 people from each category. Feel free to check the first post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298704#msg298704) of this thread to get a summary of each of the candidates (and links to further info about some of the lesser known candidates).
-
Ron Sias and Justin Alstad for players.
Bryon Hake and Rob Anderson for contributors.
-
Justin Alstad and Josh Hey for players Rob and Chis Bany for contibuters
-
rob and bany for contributors and gabe and justin alstad for the other category
-
can we vote some of the players for contributors as well?
Ron and Justin for players
Roy and Gil (or if we can't do Gil, I'll do Mike)
-
Hey, Bartram, Berkenpas, and Gray.
-
Contributors: Anderson and Bany
Players: Isbell and Sias
Comedian: Steve Braun :)
-
can we vote some of the players for contributors as well?
No, please just stick with 2 from each category. However, you are welcome to consider their contributions or achievements in the other category when deciding whether to vote for them there. In the end, all of them will be together in a single Hall of Fame.
Comedian: Steve Braun :)
I spent some time on the Redemption NJ website a long time ago, and I agree that there is an award deserved for something. Although I'm not sure whether its the Hall of Fame or the Hall of Infamy :)
-
Players: Tim and Keith
Contributors: Chris and Rob
-
Players: Justin and Gabe
Contributors: Rob and Bryon
-
Gabe/ Justin
Rob/ Roy
-
Rob/ Roy
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcapezza.net%2Fdvd_list%2Fimages%2F2346f.jpg&hash=6f1afcc36502fce59348096eeefe094e6150cc0a)
-
Let the VOTING continue!
Day 2
Please remember to only vote for 2 people from each category. Feel free to check the first post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298704#msg298704) of this thread to get a summary of each of the candidates (and links to further info about some of the lesser known candidates).
-
Players: Alstad/Maly
Contributors: Anderson/Bany
-
Let the VOTING continue!
Day 2
Please remember to only vote for 2 people from each category. Feel free to check the first post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298704#msg298704) of this thread to get a summary of each of the candidates (and links to further info about some of the lesser known candidates).
FINE. ;)
Rob belongs as THE charter member and should not need to be voted in.
Players: Bartram/Hey (Because I believe a Hall of Fame should not contain active players.)
Contributor: Rob's wife
-
Contributor: Rob's wife
"Behind every good man is a good woman", and I think she'd be a great person to nominate as a candidate after the voting is over. However, she isn't one of the candidates for this round. Feel free to add one more contributor to your vote.
-
Players: Justin and Gabe
Contributors: Rob and Bryon
-
contributors- rob and chris
players gabe and ron
:)
-
Let the VOTING continue!
Day 3
Please remember to only vote for 2 people from each category. Feel free to check the first post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298704#msg298704) of this thread to get a summary of each of the candidates (and links to further info about some of the lesser known candidates).
-
(Because I believe a Hall of Fame should not contain active players.)
I agree, but this opinion does not matter. We would much rather revel in our own self-glory and vote along our state/region lines, just like Nationals voting.
Woo-hoo.
I choose not to vote.
-
ditto. i think this is pretty pointless and asinine. what exactly does it accomplish again...?
-
what exactly does it accomplish again...?
What a Hall of Fame is supposed to accomplish is to remember those who might otherwise be forgotten. We remember past accomplishments, since those who were the "greats" of their era should be remembered.
When baseball HoF voting comes up, inevitably there are young people who do not recognize the names of the nominees. My son had no idea who Tony Gwynn was! :o Believe it or not, there are young baseball fans who have never even heard of Nolan Ryan! :o :o
We don't vote on active players because those names we already recognize, and will continue to recognize as they continue to accomplish great things (i.e. Brett Favre). There is no danger of them being forgotten.
People on these boards know who Justin and Gabe are, and recognize their prowess. Most people (me included) have never heard of Ron Sias. However, Ron is clearly someone who should be remembered. Justin and Gabe will continue to win and dominate. Their time for being remembered will come later.
Younger players will more likely vote for the names they recognize. This skews the voting process. The process is already undermined by the fact that proximity voting is logical. To people on the West Coast, Bany and Bryon have been the biggest contributors to their game, while Roy and John M. have been the biggest contributors to Northeasterners. This type of voting will not result in a universal acceptance of who should be voted in.
Besides, how exactly does Gabe vote? He clearly cannot vote for himself. What if he votes for Justin? Wouldn't Justin feel somewhat compelled to reciprocate?
If we are going to have a Hall of Fame, then we need to do it right: secret ballot for inactive nominees that we want to be remembered and not forgotten.
-
Contributor: Rob's wife
"Behind every good man is a good woman", and I think she'd be a great person to nominate as a candidate after the voting is over. However, she isn't one of the candidates for this round. Feel free to add one more contributor to your vote.
Based on my Hall of Fame beliefs, I vote Doug Gray for contributor. So:
Automatic: Rob Anderson
Player(s): Keith Bartram, Joshua Hey
Contributor(s): Doug Gray
-
what exactly does it accomplish again...?
What a Hall of Fame is supposed to accomplish is to remember those who might otherwise be forgotten. We remember past accomplishments, since those who were the "greats" of their era should be remembered.
When baseball HoF voting comes up, inevitably there are young people who do not recognize the names of the nominees. My son had no idea who Tony Gwynn was! :o Believe it or not, there are young baseball fans who have never even heard of Nolan Ryan! :o :o
We don't vote on active players because those names we already recognize, and will continue to recognize as they continue to accomplish great things (i.e. Brett Favre). There is no danger of them being forgotten.
People on these boards know who Justin and Gabe are, and recognize their prowess. Most people (me included) have never heard of Ron Sias. However, Ron is clearly someone who should be remembered. Justin and Gabe will continue to win and dominate. Their time for being remembered will come later.
Younger players will more likely vote for the names they recognize. This skews the voting process. The process is already undermined by the fact that proximity voting is logical. To people on the West Coast, Bany and Bryon have been the biggest contributors to their game, while Roy and John M. have been the biggest contributors to Northeasterners. This type of voting will not result in a universal acceptance of who should be voted in.
Besides, how exactly does Gabe vote? He clearly cannot vote for himself. What if he votes for Justin? Wouldn't Justin feel somewhat compelled to reciprocate?
If we are going to have a Hall of Fame, then we need to do it right: secret ballot for inactive nominees that we want to be remembered and not forgotten.
hmm, i understand now. sounds good.
-
Hey,
We would much rather revel in our own self-glory and vote along our state/region lines, just like Nationals voting.
For this reason I am very interested to see how the voting breaks down by Region (assuming we end up with enough people voting to do that sort of breakdown).
Of course of the eight players on the list five of them are from the North Central Region, two of them are from the Midwest Region, and one if from the northeast region. Meaning six of the eight regions don't even have the option of voting for two people from their own region. Of the votes so far 6 of 13 were for two players from the same region and only 2 of 13 were for two players from the region that the voter is from.
Besides, how exactly does Gabe vote? He clearly cannot vote for himself.
This is part of why I have not yet voted. If I believe beyond my bias that I am one of the two best, then I should vote for myself. But how on earth am I supposed to analyze myself without bias?
If we are going to have a Hall of Fame, then we need to do it right: secret ballot for inactive nominees that we want to be remembered and not forgotten.
While a secret ballot may improve the integrity of the vote, it would kinda undermine the purpose of the thread :)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Unfortunately, the list also leaves off players who were likely as good or better than those on the list, but who never got to attend a national tournament during their ~4 year playing run.
It is no surprise that there are more players from the North Central Region on the list, since there have been many more national tournaments in that Region (or very near that region).
You won't find CA players on the player list, since they didn't gain much national notoriety. Andy Siew has a lot of points on the all-time list, in spite of the fact that he's never been to a National event. I'd be curious to see how his point total ranks against everyone else, once you remove all the points they got from nationals events.
Juan and Miguel Arriaga were also extremely good players in their day. I almost always lost to those guys, yet, when I went to nationals during their heyday, I won. If they'd been able to go to national tournaments like North Central players were, they would likely be Redemption legends known nationwide.
-
RNRS points are not that great of a judge, IMO. It's all based on the playgroup. I could start a playgroup of 10 people in Puerto Rico, hold a state and a regions, and win, because the others were using starter decks.
-
We would much rather revel in our own self-glory and vote along our state/region lines...I choose not to vote.
This clearly isn't a true accusation.
Of the votes so far ... only 2 of 13 were for two players from the region that the voter is from.
If you don't want to vote, that's your prerogative, but the negativity isn't needed in this thread.
ditto. i think this is pretty pointless and asinine.
Again, if you don't want to vote, that's your prerogative, but the negativity isn't needed in this thread.
Can we get this thread back on topic and have some more people actually vote. Thanks to the 13 people who have already voted. I'd like to get many more votes as well. Let your voice be heard :)
-
Success at nationals is not that great of a judge, IMO. It greatly favors the parts of the country that have held multiple nationals nearby.
If a player from FAR OUTSIDE of the nats region succeeds at nationals, and that player loses most of the games he plays to top members of his own region (who could not come to nationals), then his success at that nationals should go to show the strength of the region he came from. Top players from his region back home should be lauded as pros. Unfortunately, that logic is ignored by almost everyone (and I don't blame them, since it is difficult to consider things from another's position if it is quite different than yours). Instead, there is an overvaluing of players from regions who have had multiple nationals in their region and/or an adjacent region.
-
If you don't want to vote, that's your prerogative, but the negativity isn't needed in this thread.
At least you finally acknowledged that I exist. The fact that every other comment I have made about the validity of a "Hall of Fame" you had previously ignored I find negative, especially since everyone else who had objections you did respond to. Therefore I reserve the right to continue my objections until you properly address them.
-
At least you finally acknowledged that I exist.
#1 - I totally did not mean to single you out for ignoring and apologize for appearing to slight you personally.
#2 - Since this seems a bit personal, I'll continue this conversation with you through PM.
As for those of you that think that RNRS points aren't a good judge, or that Nats titles aren't a good judge, feel free to use your own criteria when deciding who to vote for. But please vote :)
-
wrong place. :)
-
whoops! XD
sry bout that all :-[ :laugh:
-
I bet there could be a good thread somewhere to discuss the merits/downfalls of a hall of fame vote. I'm sure it would be a great one too, full of surprise twists and heavy doses of sarcasm. However, seeing as how the other Prof U started this thread for a specific purpose, and debating that purpose is NOT the purpose, then I think it will be more fun for everyone to continue the purpose of this thread on this thread, and take other issues to other threads. After all, no Hall of Fame/Award Ceremony leaves time/space to honor the objections people have to the existence of the institution. Those who have voted have done so from a variety of motives, but no matter what the motives were, they did according to what was asked of them.
-
If you don't want to vote, that's your prerogative, but the negativity isn't needed in this thread.
At least you finally acknowledged that I exist. The fact that every other comment I have made about the validity of a "Hall of Fame" you had previously ignored I find negative, especially since everyone else who had objections you did respond to. Therefore I reserve the right to continue my objections until you properly address them.
And once again I feel obliged to note that at least it was not a pre-ignore. ;)
-
Let the VOTING continue!
Day 4
Please remember to only vote for 2 people from each category. Feel free to check the first post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298704#msg298704) of this thread to get a summary of each of the candidates (and links to further info about some of the lesser known candidates).
-
Hey,
Of the votes so far ... only 2 of 13 were for two players from the region that the voter is from.
If you don't want to vote, that's your prerogative, but the negativity isn't needed in this thread.
I wasn't being negative, I was actually arguing in support of the hall of fame as it's being done. I haven't voted yet because I haven't decided who to vote for, not because I have any objections to the way this is being run.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
I don't think he was talking to you Tim; I believe he was using your quote as evidence that YMT's claim was false, and addressing his negativity. Though I realize how that could be confusing.
-
I wasn't being negative, I was actually arguing in support of the hall of fame as it's being done. I haven't voted yet because I haven't decided who to vote for, not because I have any objections to the way this is being run.
He only quoted you as a response to my snide comment. He was not suggesting that you were being negative. The sentences before and after his quote of you were directed at me.
Those who have voted have done so from a variety of motives, but no matter what the motives were, they did according to what was asked of them.
... by someone who does not have the authority to ask. "Hall of Fame" has official ramifications for those who view it. Was Mark officially designated to run this campaign? Was there a committee to decide what the qualifications should be, both for nominating and voting? This appears instead to be one person making all the decisions. Why is Mark that person? Because he wanted to?
Running an online tournament that has no ramifications beyond that year is not the same as running the "Hall of Fame," which is intended to have a lasting impact on all future players of this game. People are not nearly as impressed by who won the Batting Title in 1989 as who is in the Hall of Fame.
These Message Boards are not the end-all of Redemption players either. I just found out about an entire youth group here in Orlando that have already been playing Redemption, but did not know about tournaments or the Message Boards. People like Ron Sias have no presence on these boards, so we have no attachment to them or acknowledgment of their ability. They will simply not get the fair chance they deserve.
Obviously no one else thinks that a "Hall of Fame" should be more sacred than this unofficial thread, so I will stop posting. In the future, though, I think that anything of a lasting consequence should be run in such a way that it has been completely thought through by more than one person. I doubt that each new Redemption set and REG are made by one person making all the decisions while dismissing any opposition with
LET THE VOTING CONTINUE
-
I wasn't being negative
I apologize for the confusion. I wasn't trying to say that you were. The "other Prof" and YMT are correct in their interpretation of my comments.
As for the HoF having official ramifications, it does not. I was not designated anything. Someone just was talking about having a HoF and I thought it sounded like a good idea. I jump started it so we could get the ball rolling, but I do plan on opening things up in the future so that it is NOT a "one-man show".
-
that was me ;D O0
-
Voting will be finished soon, so here's your chance to have your say as to who deserves to get in the most :)
Let the VOTING continue!
Day 5
Please remember to only vote for 2 people from each category. Feel free to check the first post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298704#msg298704) of this thread to get a summary of each of the candidates (and links to further info about some of the lesser known candidates).
-
I agree that Hall of Fame should be to remember those who have RETIRED...
As such: my vote goes to Keith Bartram, who at my first local showed me why Wall of Protection was horribly needed after the release of Warriors as he decimated my deck within 10 minutes (and began my disdain of FBTN :P). My other vote goes to Josh Hey, who I think I met at Pittsburgh...my tourney career was only a fledgling then...
For contributors: While all of those great men have contributed to the game, it was Doug Gray that allowed for Redemption to be at the place where it is technologically today when he joined staff. And without recruitment we would be nowhere, and Roy Cruz will drive just about anywhere to host a tournament because he believes in this game so much. Without these two, Redemption would not be the success that it is.
-
My votes go to Justin Alstad and Chris Bany. I agree, there should be a section for retired players. ;)
-
Obviously no one else thinks that a "Hall of Fame" should be more sacred than this unofficial thread, so I will stop posting.
Actually, I agree probably 100%. However, I was under the impression that this was just for fun so I stopped caring and didn't argue against it. However, Mark sent me a message asking for my input so I'm here now.
Basically, I agree with YMT. This whole thing is a joke to me. Half the people who would be voted in don't even know they are being voted in. Does Rob even know about this thread? There are many people who have quit the game for a plethora of reasons that won't be voting and yet those people are more qualified to vote than half the people voting. A true hall of fame vote comes from people who know what they're talking about. Who votes for the baseball HoF? Random people off of current teams? No, established baseball writers. Did Tim Tebow get to vote for the Heisman when he was first up for the award? No, then why is Tim Maly voting for this? YMT is right that any joe shmoe perusing the message board will come upon this thread and immediately think that the people on this list are akin to Sammy Bough or Ty Cobb when in actuality, this is a bunch nonsense for the enjoyment of a small sampling of the total Redemption population. What is going to happen here would be similar to what would happen if the voting for the football hall of fame was conducted only by Redskin fans, no Dallas Cowboy would ever make it in.
Moral of the story? Be careful what you ask for, kiddies.
That said...
Let the VOTING continue!
-
My votes go to Justin Alstad and Chris Bany. I agree, there should be a section for retired players. ;)
You actually get to vote for 2 players and 2 contributors. As for retired players, I hope that the people who feel strongly about it will therefore vote for players who are retired (as several people have already done).
-
I believe in giving honor where honor is due, however in this instance, the people who "deserve" honor are those who are serving and giving in the context of Redemption. I don't think that we should have a hall of fame so to speak since the national tournament winners and the RNRS winners pretty much make up a list of whose who in Redemption. I think that we should consider Romans 12, especially in regards to thinking of ourselve more highly than we ought to. I love you guys and Prof, I know you are wanting to do this to encourage and admonish your fellow gamers but I don't think that is what it looks like from the outside looking in. It just looks like a bunch of Christians patting each other on the back for playing a Christian game in a Christian context...which is not what going into all the world looks like to me.
Peace...
-
I believe in giving honor where honor is due, however in this instance, the people who "deserve" honor are those who are serving and giving in the context of Redemption. I don't think that we should have a hall of fame so to speak since the national tournament winners and the RNRS winners pretty much make up a list of whose who in Redemption. I think that we should consider Romans 12, especially in regards to thinking of ourselve more highly than we ought to. I love you guys and Prof, I know you are wanting to do this to encourage and admonish your fellow gamers but I don't think that is what it looks like from the outside looking in. It just looks like a bunch of Christians patting each other on the back for playing a Christian game in a Christian context...which is not what going into all the world looks like to me.
Peace...
Hmmm...interesting. Maybe it would be more appropriate to have something along the lines of a Hall of Found? People who have been saved during the time they are involved in the game? It doesn't necessarily mean that the game was directly involved, but maybe provided an impact to their life no matter how small.
-
Players:
Justin Alstad - If memory serves he perfected speed freak, and even if I don't like the deck itself it made a MAJOR impact on the game.
Contributers:
Rob - Obvious reasons
Reyzen - Though we don't always see eye to eye he has contributed alot include helping RLKs make it to nats.
-
Hey,
As such: my vote goes to Keith Bartram, who at my first local showed me why Wall of Protection was horribly needed after the release of Warriors as he decimated my deck within 10 minutes (and began my disdain of FBTN :P).
Ooh, someone that has played against Keith in a tournament. Do you remember when that tournament was? Anything else you remember about Keith that you can tell us/me? (Keith is one of the people in Redemption's history that I know least about.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
the national tournament winners and the RNRS winners pretty much make up a list of whose who in Redemption.
One could say the same thing about HoF's in other sports. World Series and Superbowl rings and MVP awards already go to top players. And yet there is still a Baseball, Football, and Basketball HoF.
Maybe it would be more appropriate to have something along the lines of a Hall of Found?
I do appreciate this idea from Travis and you. However, we already have a testimonial section of the forum. It can be found here. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?board=25.0) But after 15 years of our game, no one has started a HoF yet. These ideas aren't mutually exclusive. I personally think having both is a great idea.
-
Contributers:
Bryon: Showed me to the game has hosted too many tourneys to count and has been playtesting for ages.
Rob: Well he made the game :p Rob is also a great guy and it been great to know him.
Players: Id like to not vote for this part.
Thanks!
-
That's cool, I was just giving my input as requested. I think that putting Redemption in the category of sports like Baseball, Football, etc. is a bit overboard, but I get the point. We could do like MTG and print cards with players on them as a way of inducting them into the HoF...JK. How about allowing national tournament winners to create a card with the help and approval of current card creators, that will be printed in the following year's set...I actually do like this idea. At least by doing that there will be some tangible way to remember those who won instead of having to drag up an old Bany spreadsheet to see who won. I just think unless we are building the Redemption HoF on your school's campus Prof, one list in one place online is no more important than another list in another place online FWIW.
-
That's cool, I was just giving my input as requested. I think that putting Redemption in the category of sports like Baseball, Football, etc. is a bit overboard, but I get the point. We could do like MTG and print cards with players on them as a way of inducting them into the HoF...JK. How about allowing national tournament winners to create a card with the help and approval of current card creators, that will be printed in the following year's set...I actually do like this idea. At least by doing that there will be some tangible way to remember those who won instead of having to drag up an old Bany spreadsheet to see who won. I just think unless we are building the Redemption HoF on your school's campus Prof, one list in one place online is no more important than another list in another place online FWIW.
i've been asking for this for years.
-
I think that putting Redemption in the category of sports like Baseball, Football, etc. is a bit overboard, but I get the point
We wouldn't even be having this discussion if those sports didn't have a Hall of Fame. The comparison is not between Redemption and football. The comparison is between the Halls of Fame of each, what the hall signifies for Redemption is the same that it signifies for the NFL. The NFL is obviously on a bigger scale, nobody is arguing that. When you see anything called "Hall of Fame" you immediately think that you are going to see the best of the best. You also think of how hard it is to be voted in to such a place. This list is being called a Hall of Fame and yet the precedence set by the Halls of Fame for those sports is pretty much ignored.
-
Anderson and Gray - Anderson is a no brainer and should be an automatic...and Doug Gray is a very close second. His art graces more cards than any other person that I know of, He has hosted tournaments (including a Nats) and ran 3 lions gaming for a very long time. Other than Rob, I cant think of anyother person who has done more to contribute to the game than Doug Gray.
Kimmons and Sias - Speaking striclty from a position that Nats is the ultimate proving ground, these guys are the top. There is no question about it. They may not have RNRS, but they have the trophies.
-
We could ... print cards with players on them as a way of inducting them into the HoF
I personally think this is a great idea. However, this would have to be something that Rob would have to decide to do. I obviously have no ability to print official Redemption cards :)
one list in one place online is no more important than another list in another place online FWIW.
This is also true. People are welcome to ignore this little project, and write it off as a meaningless collection of posts. I think that some people are enjoying the idea of being able to give recognition to the best of the best (in their opinions), and to bring back to mind some players from yesteryear who have been almost forgotten. If some people don't like my method of doing that, then I respect their opinion.
P.S. Thanks to those of you who continue to cast your votes :)
-
i think he was kidding about the player cards...its cheesy enough cracking a player card in every single mtg booster, it'd be even cheesier for redemption.
-
Actually, I think we've already implemented that Idea.
I mean Gabe's won twice - he's got two cards ;)
I guess everyboyd else is just losing out.
-
Hey,
At least by doing that there will be some tangible way to remember those who won instead of having to drag up an old Bany spreadsheet to see who won.
You mean you don't have all of the past nationals winners memorized?
They may not have RNRS, but they have the trophies.
Actually, they don't have many trophies. Most of their national titles were won before we started giving out trophies to nationals winners.
Actually, I think we've already implemented that Idea.
I mean Gabe's won twice - he's got two cards ;)
Does that mean Buzz Lightyear won nationals in 2003?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Hey,
At least by doing that there will be some tangible way to remember those who won instead of having to drag up an old Bany spreadsheet to see who won.
You mean you don't have all of the past nationals winners memorized?
Actually, I think we've already implemented that Idea.
I mean Gabe's won twice - he's got two cards ;)
Does that mean Buzz Lightyear won nationals in 2003?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
HAHAHAHAHA. that. was. amazing. I've never heard Michael being compared to Buzz Lightyear, but now that you mention it...
-
Jar Jar Binks won it, I thought.
-
If I were to cast my votes however...I would agree with all four of Crustpope's votes...
-
If I were to cast my votes however...I would agree with all four of Crustpope's votes...
Thanks, Personally I think it is hard to make a stronger case for anyone else than those four. (aside from Tim's semantics about the absence of a PHYSICAL trophy).
We judge baseball players by world series rings, we judge football players by superbowl rings, we judge basketball players by NBA Finals rings...Titles are where it is all said and done. If you can do it on a thousand smaller stages but you cant do it on the biggest stage, then frankly it doesn't really count.
Ask Peyton Manning about who is the greatest QB of all time. Montana and Brady still get figured into the conversation simply because they have mor Rings, even though Peyton has destroyed them in the stat book.
Then ask that question Monday morning and see if it makes a difference when you have 2 superbowl rings...
-
[Ask Peyton Manning about who is the greatest QB of all time. Montana and Brady still get figured into the conversation simply because they have mor Rings, even though Peyton has destroyed them in the stat book.
And yet Dan Marino, with his zero rings, is in the hall of fame, and is always in the conversation of greatest ever QB's.
-
If I were to cast my votes however...I would agree with all four of Crustpope's votes...
Thanks, Personally I think it is hard to make a stronger case for anyone else than those four. (aside from Tim's semantics about the absence of a PHYSICAL trophy).
Gray is the only one I would firmly disagree with. Bany has ran Covenant Games forever, and has helped host almost every national tournament. he also has been the main host a few times. using your stats, Bany has done all Gray has and more. don't forget that he is a center of starting redemption in one of the most dominant states right now.
-
Plus, he bands your mom into battle and something about his daughter.
-
Just a reminder to everyone, if you are going to say more than simply who you are voting for, please keep it positive :)
P.S. Thanks to those of you who continue to let us know who you think deserves it most. Voting will probably finish this weekend, so get your votes in while you can. Check this post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298704#msg298704) for candidates.
-
We judge baseball players by world series rings, we judge football players by superbowl rings, we judge basketball players by NBA Finals rings...Titles are where it is all said and done. If you can do it on a thousand smaller stages but you cant do it on the biggest stage, then frankly it doesn't really count.
Ernie Banks is so thankful that "We" don't vote. ;)
Then ask that question Monday morning and see if it makes a difference when you have 2 superbowl rings...
I already warned one fan base earlier in the season about their QB and we saw what happened. ::)
I thought it was ironic that in the Bible the number 12 is a good thing, but in ...
-
Just a reminder to everyone, if you are going to say more than simply who you are voting for, please keep it positive :)
I guess I kind of didn't write my post very well. I wasn't meaning to put Gray down, I was just saying that Bany has him beat. Gray definitely deserves to be in the HoF, eventually, but not yet.
-
Ask Peyton Manning about who is the greatest QB of all time. Montana and Brady still get figured into the conversation simply because they have mor Rings, even though Peyton has destroyed them in the stat book.
Joe Montana played against tougher defenses and rules. Joe Montana could also kill a defense with a 3rd and long scramble for a 1st down. When defenses start to pound Brady and Manning they cry and yell at their offensive lines. Montana stayed cool the whole time. ;)
-
Ask Peyton Manning about who is the greatest QB of all time. Montana and Brady still get figured into the conversation simply because they have mor Rings, even though Peyton has destroyed them in the stat book.
Joe Montana played against tougher defenses and rules. Joe Montana could also kill a defense with a 3rd and long scramble for a 1st down. When defenses start to pound Brady and Manning they cry and yell at their offensive lines. Montana stayed cool the whole time. ;)
ANyway, my comments were purely as an example, lets keep this conversation about HOF members.
And on the subject of Bany vs Gray. I would but Bany a very close third but when I think of Contributor, Rob as Designer gets primacy and Doug Gray as Chief card artist seems to be a logical second choice. His art graces more cards and his presence is about as ubiquitous as any.
Besides, I think Bany can get in as a player or a contributor pretty easy. it is tough to beat his ENTIRE body of work. I was just limiting it to one field or the other and giving Gray the edge in contribution due to his tremendous volume of artwork and keeping cards front and center through Three lions for so many years.
-
Hey,
Gray is the only one I would firmly disagree with. Bany has ran Covenant Games forever, and has helped host almost every national tournament. he also has been the main host a few times. using your stats, Bany has done all Gray has and more. don't forget that he is a center of starting redemption in one of the most dominant states right now.
Doug Gray is the one contributor I considered writing a bio on, but ultimately concluded that I don't even know enough about him to write an adequate bio. Some of the things I do know about Doug Gray:
Doug Gray was the first playgroup host.
Three Lions Inn (which became Three Lions Gaming) was one of THE Redemption websites back in the day (and if you want to compare it to CovenantGames, has been going 3+ years longer).
Doug Gray was the first person other than Rob to host nationals.
I think Doug Gray wrote the Flaming Sword newsletter (although the newsletter was before my time so I'm not entirely sure on that one).
Doug Gray for a time had the authority to make official rulings.
And of course, Doug Gray was employed by Cactus and did all the art that we know he did.
I sometimes think that some of the credit due to Bill Voigt for MN's dominance in recent years is given to Chris Bany instead.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Hey,
Gray is the only one I would firmly disagree with. Bany has ran Covenant Games forever, and has helped host almost every national tournament. he also has been the main host a few times. using your stats, Bany has done all Gray has and more. don't forget that he is a center of starting redemption in one of the most dominant states right now.
Doug Gray is the one contributor I considered writing a bio on, but ultimately concluded that I don't even know enough about him to write an adequate bio. Some of the things I do know about Doug Gray:
Doug Gray was the first playgroup host.
Three Lions Inn (which became Three Lions Gaming) was one of THE Redemption websites back in the day (and if you want to compare it to CovenantGames, has been going 3+ years longer).
Doug Gray was the first person other than Rob to host nationals.
I think Doug Gray wrote the Flaming Sword newsletter (although the newsletter was before my time so I'm not entirely sure on that one).
Doug Gray for a time had the authority to make official rulings.
And of course, Doug Gray was employed by Cactus and did all the art that we know he did.
I sometimes think that some of the credit due to Bill Voigt for MN's dominance in recent years is given to Chris Bany instead.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
ah, so it does appear that he has done quite a bit.
oh, and I didn't vote for Bany, and had all-wise-everytribe been there, I definitely would have voted for him instead of Berkenpas.
-
Just about 1 more day to get votes in for this round. If you've been waiting until the last moment, this is it. Feel free to check the first post to check out the candidates. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19078.msg298704#msg298704)
-
I'd just like to note my reservations about voting for a HOF list that doesn't include Duelin' Dude.
-
It would be helpful to have 1 more person vote as we currently have a tie between Gabe Isbell (4-time champ and current dominator) and Ron Sias (7-time champ over the long haul).
-
i'd say let ron sias get it but i already voted.
-
If it does not affect the first place results, I will gladly vote for Ron in place of my vote for Josh Hey. I mostly voted for in out of a belief that this should be for retired players. Ron would have been my third choice, and if it helps move this along so that Hey can be inducted next year, I am all for it.
-
Late to the party I'll add a vote for Keith Bartram.