Poll

Should Redemption Elders be allowed to play in Cactus Games tournaments?

No, they should not be allowed to play in tournaments
Yes, but only Local and District tournaments
Yes, but not in the National tournament
Yes, they should be allowed to play in all levels of tournaments
I don't care, this is a silly debate
Yes, but Elders should not be allowed to play in an event at Nationals if it uses newly released cards.

Author Topic: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play  (Read 6286 times)

Offline Gabe

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Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« on: September 09, 2015, 03:44:29 AM »
0
If you haven't seen the article on Land of Redemption for the background on this topic, be sure to give it a read before voting. I'm not going to take the time to restate it all here. :)

Feel free to share your thoughts in the comments below.

**EDIT - I don't want to give the impression that I have the authority to make any change or that there are any changes planned. This topic has been raised multiple times in the past and makes an interesting discussion.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 04:25:37 PM by Gabe »
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Offline jesse

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2015, 09:09:02 AM »
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Great article, Gabe! I believe the fact that the Elders can play at all levels is great for the game and a unique strength of Redemption. As evidenced by the fact they are unpaid volunteers, as well as the abundance of quality content they have shared on Land of Redemption, these boards, as well as in person through friendly conversation, it is obvious that they are first and foremost concerned with the advancement of the game, for God's glory. I know or have met many of the elders, and they are truly great guys! They are not some "secret club" out to squash everyone else in competition through unfair secret advantages – quite the opposite! Just as tournament winning deck lists are publicly released, I find the elders to be very transparent, approachable, humble, and kind. Redemption is so much better with their complete involvement in the game!

The fact that the elders are among the top finishers at tournaments is not a conflict of interest, for a few reasons: 1) as Gabe mentioned in the article, often times players who are highly successful while not an elder end up on the elder team, 2) being so highly involved in the game is bound to make you better at it! If any of us non-elders invested so much time and fellowship in the game as they do, I'm sure we would be much better at the game, too!

Finally, I really like the aspect of "The Elder Challenge": The fact that you can play the elders in casual or tournament games is such a cool challenge! It is a great test of your abilities and inspires you to strive to get better!
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Offline _JM_

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2015, 09:19:42 AM »
+1
I voted for allowing play in all levels of tournaments.

Many of the reasons for my vote were covered in Gabe's article, but I'll speak to a few that I consider important.  Elders are volunteers; since Cactus does not pay them, the only material reward they have for participating in the game is the potential winnings they can receive in tournaments.  Considering the time investment required of Elders, I feel it's fair that they have a shot at winning the end result of their labor.  Redemption also has a very small competitive group of players - we had less than 50 people playing our 'main event' at Nationals this year.  Excluding Elders will have a noticeable impact on the number of players in a tournament.  Perhaps if the game takes off again, it would make more sense to exclude Elders at Nationals, but until that point I don't think it's a good idea to reduce the number of players eligible for tournaments.

To give a real-life example of tourney size being impacted, if Elders/playtesters were excluded from tournaments last season here's what would have happened in the PA/MD area: either we would have lost up to 3 of our most experienced and skilled players (~25% of the participants at 2015 PA States; we had 2 more Elders attend NE Regionals, and so would have excluded ~20% of participants there), or the Elders/playtesters would have lost up to 3 amazing resources for improving the quality of the game.  The first case only benefits maybe 3 players (disclaimer: that includes me) who would have an easier time winning categories, but at the cost of not needing to push as hard or innovate as much in our playing and deckbuilding skills.  The second case benefits absolutely no one, and in fact causes more harm to the game overall as we lose several great playtesters and one of the driving forces behind the REG update.

I understand why this is a discussion, but I don't see any real benefit to excluding Elders from competitive play at this point.  Maybe when the player pool gets larger.

Offline Xonathan

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2015, 09:58:55 AM »
+2
Every game needs boss fights.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2015, 10:45:41 AM »
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If you haven't seen the article on Land of Redemption for the background on this topic, be sure to give it a ready before voting.
Haha  ::)

I voted for they should play. If the elders didn't play it would take out a lot of the competition, and that's one of the draws of the higher tournaments.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2015, 10:55:04 AM »
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I agree with everyone above that removing elders in general from the competitive scene would be an undesirable direction to go. I would add one caveat to this, however.

I think it is worth discussing the possibility that people with pre-release knowledge of a new set *not* be allowed to play in Booster Draft at the Nationals in which the set is released. To me this is the only real possible conflict of interest in the competitive play scene.

Offline Drrek

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2015, 11:09:23 AM »
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I agree with everyone above that removing elders in general from the competitive scene would be an undesirable direction to go. I would add one caveat to this, however.

I think it is worth discussing the possibility that people with pre-release knowledge of a new set *not* be allowed to play in Booster Draft at the Nationals in which the set is released. To me this is the only real possible conflict of interest in the competitive play scene.

The caveat I'd put there is that we don't get to do any drafts with the packs before nationals either.  Any knowledge we have for new cards as it relates to booster draft is purely based on theorizing how good cards will be there, which other players can do as well as the set tends to get fully revealed before nationals.

If everyone thinks its unfair for us to play in booster, I don't have a huge problem not playing booster at nats (although I love playing booster at nats), but I don't really think it is that much of an advantage.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2015, 11:26:07 AM »
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Good points, everyone. I've added Matt's suggestion to the poll. You can change your vote if that's your preference.
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kariusvega

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2015, 11:49:40 AM »
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there is absolutely no reason why the elders should not be able to play!! they have put their time in to get to the position to where they are at most likely due to skill, not to mention a ton of dedication!!

they deserve to be able to play in all tournaments.

confusion is a huge factor here as even play testers and elders may have used some cards before, but they probably have changed not only that everyone gets a year to develop their own strategies and combinations so it's not like anyone can't read the cards and develop their own! winning strategies and combinations have been repeated and changed only slightly. there are no cards now or before from one single set release that give anyone an unfair advantage over anyone else who has access to those cards.

now if you factor dedication in to experience, yes the elders may be the most dedicated and experienced.. how isn't that going to apply anywhere? that is certainly not a reason for anyone to be excluded.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2015, 01:44:39 PM »
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I agree with everyone above that removing elders in general from the competitive scene would be an undesirable direction to go. I would add one caveat to this, however.

I think it is worth discussing the possibility that people with pre-release knowledge of a new set *not* be allowed to play in Booster Draft at the Nationals in which the set is released. To me this is the only real possible conflict of interest in the competitive play scene.

I agree it is worth discussing, however, keep in mind that since 2007 (when new sets started being used in Booster Draft) there have been only 2 playtesters that have placed in the top 3 at Nats (and maybe even only one, as I'm not sure if Gabe was a playtester in 2008 when he got second). The other one was in 2012, when no new set was released at Nats (so that guy just had to use his natural skill, smarts, and savvy to place that high  ::)). Bryon Hake did place 4th in 2007. I think the most likely opportunities for an advantage would have been the tins, as those are cards that all fit together to compose up to 20% of a deck (which is one reason why I never really liked tin drafts myself, as it seemed to take some of the fun out of drafting). With the box packs, there are only 4-5 new cards available for each person, so even if 2-3 of those work well with the rest of your draft, that's still a very small percentage of the draft.

With other mitigating factors such as the release of spoilers, and the fact that Booster draft is Booster draft (crazy things tend to happen), I don't see it as an issue. That said, the alternative with the schedule as it typically is, would be for all playtesters/elders to either judge, or play T2-MP (which I of course wouldn't mind, but I've heard some people consider the category emotionally, if not physically, exhausting).
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2015, 02:34:26 PM »
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As much as I would enjoy greatly increasing my chances of winning any Twin Cities tournament, I think the competition presented by the elders here (particularly Justin, Jordan, and soon to be John and Tim) is what makes the game interesting for high-level players. However, that being said, I am a higher-level player (or so I like to think) which means the elders' advantage isn't quite as substantial as it would be against someone who plays casually here and there and doesn't stand a chance. On the other hand, not being able to win tournaments encourages the casual player to play more often, experiment with more decks, and learn to avoid mistakes.

One more idea that would be interesting if tournament play for elders was ever limited, is that elders could only play in T2 and sealed categories. The downside of that being upset elders who don't have the patience for T2 and that it may discourage non-elders from playing T2.

Offline wyatt_marcum

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2015, 02:36:58 PM »
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Finally, I really like the aspect of "The Elder Challenge": The fact that you can play the elders in casual or tournament games is such a cool challenge! It is a great test of your abilities and inspires you to strive to get better!
Every game needs boss fights.

I got to play Rob at my first Nats. that was a Boss Battle for me. I lost of course. but not all Elders do exceptionally great at Nats. Mr.Underwood has only placed, but I don't think he has ever won, and he has play tested cards and been an Elder as long as I have known him. that's not saying he isn't good, he is, but it is an example of it not giving him an edge.
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Offline Knoxyouthpastor

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2015, 03:50:39 PM »
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I voted I don't care, this is silly. But in actuality, I do care and this is a silly debate. I agree with most of the responses above except this quote here:
One more idea that would be interesting if tournament play for elders was ever limited, is that elders could only play in T2 and sealed categories. The downside of that being upset elders who don't have the patience for T2 and that it may discourage non-elders from playing T2.
only because, I actually hate T1 and often do face an Alstad at some point before a Nats. I love playing the Elders, even if I get smoked. But T2 is where it is at. However, the playing field should be even between T1 & T2 with elders. I mentioned this in another post about this a few weeks ago and I noticed it hasn't been brought up here so I will add it as well. Gabe, do with it what you will with the voting, as I said, I think this is all silly, and having the Elders play is great for this game. Here it is:
Elder's who place in said category at Nats cannot play in said category at next years Nats.

I don't really want this, but I can see people being in favor for it to give them a chance to place. But then I wouldn't be able to get my revenge...J/K...LOL!
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Offline Drrek

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2015, 03:58:17 PM »
+2
Elder's who place in said category at Nats cannot play in said category at next years Nats.

Sweet, under this rule I'd always be allowed to play T1-2P at nats.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2015, 04:32:00 PM »
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I agree it is worth discussing, however, keep in mind that since 2007 (when new sets started being used in Booster Draft) there have been only 2 playtesters that have placed in the top 3 at Nats (and maybe even only one, as I'm not sure if Gabe was a playtester in 2008 when he got second).

I was not a play tester, nor did I help Kevin Shride (the play tester I was connected with) during the first Faith of Our Fathers set.

I've also added the following disclaimer to the original post as I don't want to give people the wrong idea about the purpose of bringing up this topic.

I don't want to give the impression that I have the authority to make any change or that there are any changes planned. This topic has been raised multiple times in the past and makes an interesting discussion.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2015, 04:45:25 PM »
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I agree it is worth discussing, however, keep in mind that since 2007 (when new sets started being used in Booster Draft) there have been only 2 playtesters that have placed in the top 3 at Nats (and maybe even only one, as I'm not sure if Gabe was a playtester in 2008 when he got second).

I was not a play tester, nor did I help Kevin Shride (the play tester I was connected with) during the first Faith of Our Fathers set.


2008 was Rock of Ages, so it may still apply if you were involved then (I seem to recall you having an Ehud's Dagger playtest card at some point...but I may be misremembering).

I would be interested to hear from the person who voted for option 1, to see if they actually believe that, and what their reasons are.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2015, 05:34:34 PM »
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I cannot help but be reminded of the original Bad News Bears movie from the 1980s, when all the fans and MLB players in the Astrodome started chanting:

LET THEM PLAY! LET THEM PLAY! LET THEM PLAY!
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2015, 06:55:03 PM »
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I think it is worth discussing the possibility that people with pre-release knowledge of a new set *not* be allowed to play in Booster Draft at the Nationals in which the set is released. To me this is the only real possible conflict of interest in the competitive play scene.
This guy is a jerk.  ;)

Just to be clear--I am not advocating this position. I was just bringing up what I feel to be the worst possible situation. As Professor Alstad points out (and as I knew when I posted) even the worst possible situation is no situation at all.

TheHobbit13

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2015, 08:55:15 PM »
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Either way it's unfair so I don't think the status quo is a bad thing.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2015, 02:08:23 AM »
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I'm a proud objector

Offline Jonesy

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2015, 07:43:40 AM »
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I agree with people in saying they should play. The only advantage i see is the booster draft dynamic. The other CCG's though must have excluded them for a solid reason that maybe we have not discussed yet, after all they are pretty successful :P . Also i was wondering how many people were saying let them play because of their own christian character and that they love having them in the mix over the actual fairness issue. Some people as well do not know all the things that the elders do to possibly give them an advantage since they are not elders themselves. I just want to restate, i do think they should play, but i do not know all the things like i said above that would give them a possible advantage if any at all. I would be curious how the talks go between elders and Rob when it comes to this, since you guys would probably know best about it, and will be able to make the best decision. Unless you can not have a fair presentation on both sides because people are so passionate about playing. I could keep going, but i am done for now haha

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2015, 02:28:01 PM »
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I agree with Brian here.  I think the card knowledge doesn't make a difference but the ruling knowledge is another story.  For instance if I come up with some ridiculous combo based off of an old cards wording I have the chance to discuss is with people like Justin, John, Jordan, Gabe ect and I never have to make it public knowledge.  Someone without the same kind of inside connection or track has to put the combo in the public forum get the answer.

Being able to more easily get a ruling for a combo and being able to keep it hidden is definitely an advantage.
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Offline kram1138

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2015, 03:21:26 PM »
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I agree with Brian here.  I think the card knowledge doesn't make a difference but the ruling knowledge is another story.  For instance if I come up with some ridiculous combo based off of an old cards wording I have the chance to discuss is with people like Justin, John, Jordan, Gabe ect and I never have to make it public knowledge.  Someone without the same kind of inside connection or track has to put the combo in the public forum get the answer.

Being able to more easily get a ruling for a combo and being able to keep it hidden is definitely an advantage.

Instead of posting it on the public forum, could not one simply PM an elder?
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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2015, 04:25:47 PM »
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I don't know if anyone remembers when Landofredemption was running the Armour of God articles. Some of the playtesters forgot  about the color combinations on the cards ❔ Are there any of the Elders that have a photographic memory? If not or regardless let them play. If someone feels the need/want/desire that they be excluded from play,might I suggest that any tournament they participate in - they play against the rookies using sealed decks. That why they can accomplish two things. 1) training new people or refresher courses. What are the odds of a rookie complaining?  I mean training by a veteran,who'd turn that down? 2) That's their deck for the rest of the tournament. Naturally I'd set a limit on this,like if someone wants the help and/or 2 tournaments per season.
Sorry about the long winded statement.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Redemption Elders and Sanctioned Play
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2015, 04:39:58 PM »
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I agree with Brian here.  I think the card knowledge doesn't make a difference but the ruling knowledge is another story.  For instance if I come up with some ridiculous combo based off of an old cards wording I have the chance to discuss is with people like Justin, John, Jordan, Gabe ect and I never have to make it public knowledge.  Someone without the same kind of inside connection or track has to put the combo in the public forum get the answer.


To go even further I'm sure being in the loop clears up some of these ruling questions that arise with combos during playtesting and perhaps a direct question is even unnecessary to ask. That's fairly significant because you wouldn't have to telegraph a combo your playing to a top player you might see you later on in the tournament season.

 


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