Author Topic: Not too sure about the new 4th Ed starter deck cards... (Read 6348 times)

kooky112 · « **on:** August 07, 2013, 12:19:36 PM »

I am currently helping train and teach a bunch of new kids how to play Redemption, and so ar all of these kids are using the 4th ed. cards. The problem that me and some of the other teachers are having, is these cards are extremly VAGUE on what can be done. I forget the name but one of them says 'Character is immune to evil characters.' I came up with it's gotta be immune to HUMAN evil characters, but this is a bit ridiculous.

I've been playing Redemption for a good 10 years, not once was I baffled by a card as bad as I am with a few of these 4th edition cards. If someone can explain to me about some of these new vague cards within the next 2 hours I would be very grateful. I will be leaving to go bac to the campgrounds where there is no internet connection and we would love an answer before the big tournament we are having this Saturday at Brown City Missionary Church Camp.

Red · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2013, 12:20:45 PM »

Name the cards? None of the new cards are vague. Immune isn't even in the I/J starters.

kooky112 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2013, 12:25:30 PM »

I believe John was one of them. When you look at these 4th ed cards, and compare them to the older cards, they are very vague.

One of the reasons I am at home right now is to grab my secondary deck so I can teach these kids hwo to really play, with cards that are better suited for a tournament. Best of all it can hold it's own against my silver brigade experienced division tournament deck which is one of the best in our state. (I kinda played against myself to build both decks)

Red · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2013, 12:28:12 PM »

Quote from: kooky112 on August 07, 2013, 12:25:30 PM

I believe John was one of them. When you look at these 4th ed cards, and compare them to the older cards, they are very vague.

One of the reasons I am at home right now is to grab my secondary deck so I can teach these kids hwo to really play, with cards that are better suited for a tournament. Best of all it can hold it's own against my silver brigade experienced division tournament deck which is one of the best in our state. (I kinda played against myself to build both decks)

Negate evil characters. I apologize for possibly coming off badly here but how is three words and one of which is a simplistic Redemption keyword everyone should know and the other two the name of a card type, vague? If anything the cards are five times cleaner to read than older cards and far less vague.

Chris · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2013, 12:29:49 PM »

They actually really aren't vague at all. They're simplified, but they give all of the information needed to use them. As Red noted, "Immune" isn't even an ability that the fourth edition starters use, and even if it was, "Character is immune to Evil Characters" is extremely straight-forward. I don't know where you get the "Human" part of that interpretation, but it's wrong.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2013, 12:57:25 PM »

The only card I can think of that fits that kind of description is Spiritual Beings (AW) which says "Hero is Immune to human Evil Characters" and Not Alone (AW) which says "All heroes in battle are Immune to selected evil brigade". Basically each one means all human Evil Characters can't hurt your hero and selected brigade characters can't hurt your heroes in battle, respectively, without interrupting or negating the immunity. Some of the 10th Anniversary starter deck cards (G/H decks) do have more confusing abilities like that of Red Dragon: "Immune to human heroes" which may be what you're confusing the 4th Edition starter deck cards (I/J decks) with. None of the I/J deck cards have abilities like immune or ignore or things that a new player wouldn't be able to easily understand.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2013, 12:58:24 PM »

As Chris said, the cards were intended to be simple; if they seem vague, it's really because they are more powerful than a lot of recent cards. While many of the cards from the past several sets specify a bunch of conditions/exceptions (e.g. If used by X kind of Hero, do Y, except when used against Z, etc.) Instead, the cards are designed to be simple. "Negate Evil Characters" does exactly as it says: it negates all Evil Characters (human or not). Which means that if an Evil Character blocks when John is in battle, its special ability won't work. Angel of the Lord says "Discard an Evil Character." So you do exactly as it says, and discard an evil character.

I haven't heard from anyone else that the cards are vague, but feel free to ask any other questions on any other cards that you might have.

kooky112 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2013, 01:04:58 PM »

The problem is for new players they are too simplified. For the negate part, does that mean the abilities are negated or the evil character itself is negated? You people can sit on your high horses all you want and say you like them, but try explaining the rules to a 1st grader, then they come up on this card and don't know what it means since other cards (Like warriors Shamhuth for instance) say All special abilities on enhancements are prevented.

Red · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2013, 01:07:40 PM »

Quote from: kooky112 on August 07, 2013, 01:04:58 PM

The problem is for new players they are too simplified. For the negate part, does that mean the abilities are negated or the evil character itself is negated? You people can sit on your high horses all you want and say you like them, but try explaining the rules to a 1st grader, then they come up on this card and don't know what it means since other cards (Like warriors Shamhuth for instance) say All special abilities on enhancements are prevented.

We aren't on high horses. You can't get too simple. I've taught multiple people with the starters and never ran into that problem. Explain the keywords better and problems will not arise.(Also first graders on average have a problem grasping y'know, rules.)

kooky112 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2013, 01:09:50 PM »

Well thanks for the help, I'll go back and explain what's been told to me and update all of you on how the tournament goes this weekend in the beginners division.

Chris · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2013, 01:11:22 PM »

Quote from: kooky112 on August 07, 2013, 01:04:58 PM

For the negate part, does that mean the abilities are negated or the evil character itself is negated?

The rulebook clearly explains what a negate ability does.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2013, 01:32:20 PM »

Kooky,

I have PM'd you my phone number. Please call me if you have questions during your tournament, or at any time that you are teaching new players the game. Don't let the negativity of this Message Board discourage you from expanding the game to a new generation.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2013, 01:35:44 PM »

Negate stops the special ability on cards targeted by the negate.

Kirk

Professoralstad · « **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2013, 02:26:58 PM »

Quote from: kooky112 on August 07, 2013, 01:04:58 PM

The problem is for new players they are too simplified. For the negate part, does that mean the abilities are negated or the evil character itself is negated? You people can sit on your high horses all you want and say you like them, but try explaining the rules to a 1st grader, then they come up on this card and don't know what it means since other cards (Like warriors Shamhuth for instance) say All special abilities on enhancements are prevented.

The new rulebook explains what the key words (like Negate) do. The reason why a lot of the abilities aren't spelled out like some of the older cards (like your Shamhuth example) is that A) too much card text makes cards complicated, and B) Oftentimes cards included unnecessary language that makes things confusing. For example, when Prince of this World and Emperor Nero came out, they tried to explain what immune to lone Heroes meant, that the only way a rescue attempt could be successful is if two or more Heroes are in battle. However, if a lone Hero was in battle and that player played Angel of the Lord, or a way to negate the immune ability (like with King's Sword active) then that last sentence doesn't apply anymore.

So part of the design of the new cards included simpler, easier to read abilities, with a rulebook that explains what those wordings mean. The decks are supposed to be able to teach the game without referencing other cards first, then as the more complicated (and in many cases poorly worded) cards are introduced, the kids will have the foundation of cleaner, simpler abilities. However, I can easily see why someone who has been around a long time but perhaps hasn't been as active in Redemption of late might be confused by some of the ways cards are worded.

I wish you the best in your tournament, and I hope that you have success in teaching the kids to play. The new ways abilities are worded might take some getting used to by Redemption veterans, but in most cases that I know of, these decks have been far easier to teach to new players than previous starter decks. I would also add that I would highly suggest taking YMT up on his offer if you have questions, and have a working phone. He has been around a long time, and has taught a lot of kids to play the game, so he can probably not only help with ruling questions, but also give you some tips.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2013, 03:43:35 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 07, 2013, 02:26:58 PM

He has been around a long time, and has taught a lot of kids to play the game, so he can probably not only help with ruling questions, but also give you some tips.

Indeed. If anyone else needs help, just let me know. I have taught the game to every age from elementary school up to AARP. You definitely don't teach the same way to all ages.

kooky112 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2013, 08:20:05 PM »

Thankyou all for your help, unfortunately I barel had enough reception for talking on my phone, so talking with YMT wasn't gonna work out. I'll deinitely hit him up again though soon as I can get things rolling to get my church started on small redemption tournaments/workshops and then HOPEFULLY make our campgrounds tournament the big tournament and maybe even pull in other redemption players from out of state.

I won second place in the experienced division, it was a great match and the kid built his non silver brigade deck well enough to last him long enough to draw a second son of god card to win. My deck is only 54 cards, while his was 105 cards. I went 10 turns with no cards to draw except for my angels that came out of chamber of angels every other turn when he killed one off. I haven't had a good long battle like that in a long time.

Red · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2013, 08:23:51 PM »

Quote from: kooky112 on August 11, 2013, 08:20:05 PM

Thankyou all for your help, unfortunately I barel had enough reception for talking on my phone, so talking with YMT wasn't gonna work out. I'll deinitely hit him up again though soon as I can get things rolling to get my church started on small redemption tournaments/workshops and then HOPEFULLY make our campgrounds tournament the big tournament and maybe even pull in other redemption players from out of state.

I won second place in the experienced division, it was a great match and the kid built his non silver brigade deck well enough to last him long enough to draw a second son of god card to win. My deck is only 54 cards, while his was 105 cards. I went 10 turns with no cards to draw except for my angels that came out of chamber of angels every other turn when he killed one off. I haven't had a good long battle like that in a long time.

You can't play two son of gods. What is this?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2013, 09:03:50 PM »

I would guess that they thought you could have two since their deck was over 100 cards. Unfortunately they were incorrect.

drb1200 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2013, 09:49:36 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 07, 2013, 01:32:20 PM

negativity

This is why I love you

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2013, 09:54:09 PM »

Quote from: Daniel on August 11, 2013, 09:49:36 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 07, 2013, 01:32:20 PM
negativity

This is why I love you

I'm confused as to why this is necessary in a thread where a new player is asking for help.

drb1200 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2013, 09:57:53 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 11, 2013, 09:54:09 PM

Quote from: Daniel on August 11, 2013, 09:49:36 PM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 07, 2013, 01:32:20 PM
negativity

This is why I love you

I'm confused as to why this is necessary in a thread where a new player is asking for help.

Negate? Negativity? Get it?

soul seeker · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2013, 10:09:18 PM »

A couple of questions:
1. Your (kooky) profile says MI. Is that where the camp is as well? (If so, then Ron Sias lives in MI and could be a great resource in addition to YMT.)
2. Is your camp in MI as well? If not, then what state? (I'm thinking that maybe a nearby experienced player can swing by to judge/counsel and not play, in addition to YMT.)
3. After this camp...mistakes at tournaments are forgivable, after all the game was made for fun and fellowship, you could connect with several experienced players to help you through the nuances of the game (in addition to YMT) when you get home. I started teaching my sons the game when they were in late1st/early 2nd grade.
4. Can you write down exact difficult terms to ask about in this thread* so that we can help?

* I would ask all board members to try to remember back when they first started before typing reply answers. Sometimes, we can forget how institutionalized we have become.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** August 11, 2013, 10:37:15 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on August 11, 2013, 10:09:18 PM

(I'm thinking that maybe a nearby experienced player can swing by to judge/counsel and not play, in addition to YMT.)

In addition?

I assure you that I will not be passing by Michigan anytime soon.

Interestingly, I did not realize that Kooky was a female when I first posted and PM'd. I realize now that I have become the Creepy Old Guy of the Forum. Too bad Schaef is not here to make that my official title.

Quote from: Daniel on August 11, 2013, 09:57:53 PM

Negate? Negativity? Get it?

I'm glad someone noticed. That is why I love you.

Most of my jokes have failed miserably lately. I was going to give up stand-up and become an illusionist.

The Guardian · « **Reply #23 on:** August 11, 2013, 11:35:09 PM »

Quote from: YMT

I was going to give up stand-up and become an illusionist.

I don't see that happening.

Wa-wa-wa...

STAMP · « **Reply #24 on:** August 11, 2013, 11:40:24 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on August 11, 2013, 10:09:18 PM

* I would ask all board members to try to remember back when they first started before typing reply answers. Sometimes, we can forget how institutionalized we have become.

That simply bears repeating.

News:

Author Topic: Not too sure about the new 4th Ed starter deck cards... (Read 6348 times)

Chris

Chris

drb1200

drb1200