Author Topic: New Expansion Pack?  (Read 8408 times)

Offline Red

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2012, 11:53:35 AM »
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I find it hilarious I played against more Red offenses than The Deck... lol
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2012, 12:12:53 PM »
+1
Regardless of what deck they chose, these guys were probably going to be at the top.  So this year 7 of those 11 guys decided to run "The Deck", and they took half of the top 15 places with it.  But if they had all ran TGT, or Disiciples, or Geneptians, or another good deck option, then I suspect that they still would have ended up in the top 15 with that.
I disagree. Good players recognize what decks are good, and play them to increase their chances of winning. So 7 of the top 15 recognized "The Deck" as the best deck. If they (we?) thought there was a better one, they/we would have played that deck instead. So while some may have done just fine with another deck, it wouldn't be optimal.
Correct.  Players often "test drive" new cards as they are released, and see what works best together over the course of the year.  It was a credit to the developers that so many different themes/decks lasted as long into the tournament season as they did.  But it is absolutely to the credit of the players that they (once again) narrowed the field of "best decks" down to one by the national tournament.

In a tournament player pool that is severely small, Underwood is actually spot on. As long as your REP's select a deck that is Tier 1, then chances are they will top no matter what deck they use.

Run a National level tournament every single month, then you will be able to objectively see what the 'best deck', if one exists, is.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 12:15:35 PM by Master KChief »
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Offline Platinum_Angel

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2012, 01:12:06 AM »
+1
I am going to have to agree with Mr. Underwood on this one. The premise that grabbing a bunch of cards that you like to play and make a deck is made for a casual environment. The people at 2012 NATS did their homework and made the deck they thought would win. Did they like using the cards in the deck? Each person will give a different answer. The fact that Redemption was created and then started print in 1997 with no new legal tournament formats created and no banned or restricted lists makes for unusual card play situations. I wont argue the fact that some cards may seem broken or that R&D needs to make a card in a new set every year to control those cards. The fact of the matter is that in any card game you will have these problems. Is it the right time in Redemption's existence to start making new formats allowing only certain sets to be played or that banning some cards from being played anymore. I think if you do one you have to to both. I also think that if Redemption should go as far as doing those things it would be safe to say that we need triple the amount of players playing in the USA as we do now. I think that we should make a 6 month campaign in each of our cities to advertise and recruit players to play the game. Would that warrant Cactus to start making not one but 2 sets every year? Would that make it acceptable for Cactus to create different formats with legal sets in each? A banned list??? With all of these thoughts in so many of our heads we can't forget how Redemption was created. Rob Anderson didn't like how so many of the TCG's in the world had to be played. Like the "other" TCG (decreasing your life total till your dead). Rob created Redemption for a friendly purpose. A holy purpose if you will. He wanted to spread the word, on every card, of the most read and owned book in the whole world. He wanted people to meet "NEW" people so the Word could be spread. Remember that Redemption is supposed to be a "Friendly" game. Don't loose sight of that.

To all players of Redemption "Have FUN and play well with others!"

P.S. I don't want to start a new argument and anything I have said wasn't to prove a point. This is just my general opinion on the subject and I can wait to see what the new stater set has in store for the meta game.

Thank you,

Nate
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2012, 08:59:05 AM »
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All this talk of The Deck makes me laugh when I consider that it was a nearly decade old strategy that ended up winning the tournament.
Although it is rather humorous, this doesn't generalize well because Martin is a special case. How long has he been playing FBNB as his primary deck--a few years? He has gone to every Nationals and played a large number of smaller tournaments over that time honing both his deck and his skills. That kind of dedication will always pay off if you are an excellent player (and decent human being) to begin with. It is also why I and a number of other players I know were rooting for him to win it all.

Now it is up to the developers to make sure that "The Deck" will have a harder time winning nationals next year, while still allowing for a variety of decks to be popular and playable in the months leading up to nationals.  The good news is that we have a window of time to get it right before the cards go to the printers.  :)
The real question is are the developers going to try for this and do they have the ability to do that? Recent history demonstrates a lack somewhere in the design process.

Why did it take a couple of years before TGT had legitimate counters when three months into the release of RoA *the* player plaint was that TGT was OP to the point of brokenness? Why was no legitimate counter to Thaddeus released in this set? And, no, creating a new card that grants Thaddeus's OP-ness to another character and *and* draws cards doesn't really count as a counter. (Thaddeus is still broken, but, hey, other things are more broken so no one played Disciples this year--success!)

For a more detailed case study... One of the primary stated card design objectives ever since Gabe won Nats in KC was to try and get players to play real defenses as opposed to the multi-brigade Super Friends. Five sets later how has that quest worked out? I can't provide an answer without it appearing to be piling on, so I will leave it as an open question.

I apologize if the above seems like I am making a personal attack. I am not trying to dump on the folks who make up the card design team, but on the overall effectiveness of the card design process during the period of time I have been playing. It is useful to have an objective assessment of where things stand as a basis for moving forward. My assessment most likely falls far short of what is needed to be considered objective, so have at it.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2012, 10:29:19 AM »
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The problem is not that counters aren't made, its that people don't use them. If we make hard counters to the best offenses, people won't use them for the simple fact that they don't want to stop their own offenses, and instead would rather rely on their decks being a step ahead of the others. We made Image of Jealousy, Destructive Sin, Axe, and Land Dispute all in the set right after TGT. People chose not to use them. Then we made Golgotha, CP and Chorazin to stop both key facets of TGT decks: territory destruction and ignore. Still people didn't use them. Finally, this past year we made ASA. Did that solve the TGT issue? Maybe, or maybe TGT was less of a factor because more players were using other strategies.

As for Thaddeus, there were plenty of counters designed with him in mind: CwD, Tower of Thebez, Stone of Thebez, and Iron Pan. We can make all the counters we want, but people need to use them for them to be effective. But they also need to be balanced, else formerly OP strats become unplayable, in which case there was no point in having them in the first place.

I assure you (and everyone) that the meta counters we are coming up with this time around will be playable and effective. What I cannot assure is that people will use them. I hope they do, but the only thing playtesters can do is make them. Without drastically changing deck-building/gameplay rules, that's just the way it will continue to be.

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Offline Master KChief

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2012, 11:32:51 AM »
+1
The reason no one uses the counters is because 99% of them are discriminatory towards one particular strat, and is a dead draw against most any other deck. Consistency wins games, not splashing random X tech against random Y strat.

Your solution is adding game 2/3 with sideboard. Then you will see the counters mass used.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2012, 12:37:18 PM »
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FWIW, Martin used Naz, which is one of the single best counters to The Deck. A first turn Naz is killer.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2012, 01:03:48 PM »
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Naz has already been in use within FBTNB since it came out. Naz shuts down the tutoring of one of FBTNB's worse matchups, Phillies.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2012, 02:50:15 PM »
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Your solution is adding game 2/3 with sideboard. Then you will see the counters mass used.
Why else do you think they spent the last set making sure every single brigade can draw 85 cards per turn and search and have characters that are protected from everything? Three game matches *and* a 45 minute time limit FTW. ;)

Offline cookie monster

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Re: New Expansion Pack?
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2012, 10:50:16 AM »
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Yeah which is boring to be honest and the main reason I converted to type-2 in less then a year of playing redemption. type-1 became so similar, the majority of people play the same deck with slight variations.  Nothing interesting new or exciting about that.

I have to say though, while The Deck was very successful (except in my hands, where it wasn't really the Deck's fault in at least 2 of the games I lost), there still was a relatively good variety of decks at the top.

What is "The Deck"?
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