Author Topic: New Expansion Pack? (Read 8409 times)

Chris · « **Reply #25 on:** August 15, 2012, 07:26:03 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 15, 2012, 07:22:19 PM

The problem with Watergarden was not the offense, it was the defense. John himself told me that it just doesn't get many blocks against the current meta offenses.

I know there was a lot of skepticism about the speed of Watergarden, though I can't remember if John, himself, expressed any of that.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 15, 2012, 07:27:12 PM »

I will say chris the time I beat u I was playing gardensciples with 63 and heavy defense

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #27 on:** August 15, 2012, 07:29:08 PM »

I probably complained more about the defense to you - but the offense was a problem as well.

The Offence simply didn't perform well against the meta defense, the years that WaterGarden was truly good were years that I was actually getting blocked by big ugly Philistine Dudes, and getting to play things like Words of Encouragement in battle. Now you just chump with Uzzah, or drop Gomer+KoT. The really sad part about popularizing my defense, was that my offence didn't do well against it

One of the best characters in Water Garden suffers from the same issue that Samuel suffers from. Susanna is an amazing card - She looks at a ton of cards, and gets me something important every time. But then gets punished for being in battle by getting Uzzah blocked, or worse, PG+Confusion blocked. Samuel is an amazing card - He draws 2, and searches out a cool hero. But then gets punished for being in battle.

Then with the rampage of both Martin's FBTNB and 'The Deck' the meta defense was next to useless. I tried some experimentation with other defense ideas, but the deck simply didn't fit together well anymore.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #28 on:** August 15, 2012, 07:30:33 PM »

You guys use such tiny decks. Come visit Florida where 70-77 card decks are the norm.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #29 on:** August 15, 2012, 07:34:36 PM »

Notice how no one is talking about how Greeson took 3rd with my judges/magician/assyrian deck.

Kirk

Chris · « **Reply #30 on:** August 15, 2012, 07:39:44 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on August 15, 2012, 07:27:12 PM

I will say chris the time I beat u I was playing gardensciples with 63 and heavy defense

I don't mean to sound rude here, but so what? That doesn't mean Gardensciples or heavy defense is better than spread offenses, it just means that it won one game and was piloted by an exceptional player.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 15, 2012, 07:43:44 PM »

Well I don't know about the exceptional player part but I will agree it was lucky on my part and you beat the same deck a day later.

I was simply commenting on what gabe said about the Watergarden defense being to weak.

Red · « **Reply #32 on:** August 15, 2012, 10:38:17 PM »

I will hold until the day I die that TGT is the second best deck in the format. Why? Who plays defense? No meta deck can stand up to second turn TGT.

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** August 15, 2012, 11:20:20 PM »

Quote from: Red on August 15, 2012, 10:38:17 PM

I will hold until the day I die that TGT is the second best deck in the format. Why? Who plays defense? No meta deck can stand up to second turn TGT.

Apparently the T1-2P National Champion plays defense.

Red · « **Reply #34 on:** August 15, 2012, 11:41:24 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 15, 2012, 11:20:20 PM

Quote from: Red on August 15, 2012, 10:38:17 PM
I will hold until the day I die that TGT is the second best deck in the format. Why? Who plays defense? No meta deck can stand up to second turn TGT.

Apparently the T1-2P National Champion plays defense.

True dat. I still say TGT will never fall below tier one in this meta though.

Chris · « **Reply #35 on:** August 16, 2012, 01:09:16 AM »

Quote from: Red on August 15, 2012, 11:41:24 PM

Quote from: Gabe on August 15, 2012, 11:20:20 PM
Quote from: Red on August 15, 2012, 10:38:17 PM
I will hold until the day I die that TGT is the second best deck in the format. Why? Who plays defense? No meta deck can stand up to second turn TGT.

Apparently the T1-2P National Champion plays defense.
True dat. I still say TGT will never fall below tier one in this meta though.

Keep in mind TGT only had two slots in the top ten this year. Spread offenses clearly dominated, and that's enough to push anything else out of the top ten, in my opinion.

Master KChief · « **Reply #36 on:** August 16, 2012, 01:26:01 AM »

Only? The fact 2 topped in a field clearly saturated by everyone using the new broken tech makes it much more than a coincidence and still qualifies it as a viable contender for Tier 1.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #37 on:** August 16, 2012, 01:30:20 AM »

I don't know if you can call it saturated. about 7 people were playing 'The Deck' at least that many were running a TGT variant, probably even more than that.

Master KChief · « **Reply #38 on:** August 16, 2012, 01:40:59 AM »

From what I am gathering from tournament reports, it seems far more 'The Deck's (pretty tacky imo, needs a far more descriptive title) were piloted than TGT. TGT appeared far less represented, nonetheless by qualified REP's.

Drrek · « **Reply #39 on:** August 16, 2012, 01:43:30 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 16, 2012, 01:40:59 AM

'The Deck's (pretty tacky imo, needs a far more descriptive title)

Finally, someone who agrees with me that its a terrible title for the deck.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #40 on:** August 16, 2012, 01:55:01 AM »

I've been calling my version AutO^2 - In that it's a deck that keys off of Angel under the Oak and an Auto-blocking defense.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #41 on:** August 16, 2012, 08:33:51 AM »

At first I was disturbed by how many times "The Deck" was represented at the top of the National tournament. However, I have thought about it more, and I think there's another way to look at it. Before the tournament even started, there are some names that stand out as players who are viewed as top players, and who had a good chance to place in the top 10. They would be: Martin Miller, John Earley, Jonathan Gresson, Matt Townsend, Daniel Huisinga, Chris Ericson, Alex Olijar, Josh Brinkman, James Roepke, James Courtney, Andrew Wester.

Regardless of what deck they chose, these guys were probably going to be at the top. So this year 7 of those 11 guys decided to run "The Deck", and they took half of the top 15 places with it. But if they had all ran TGT, or Disiciples, or Geneptians, or another good deck option, then I suspect that they still would have ended up in the top 15 with that.

So I'm not sure that the problem is that "The Deck" is that awesome, or if the problem is just that so many top players all decided to play the same thing.

P.S. As I was looking at things, I should also use this chance to congratulate Connor Magras, Jay Chambers (Red), and Caleb Stanley. These guys haven't been well-known in the past, but after their showing at Nats, I think people should consider them as top players as well.

soul seeker · « **Reply #42 on:** August 16, 2012, 09:35:18 AM »

As far as "The Deck's" name, I labeled it as "Superband" in my Ipod before I realized that they had given it such a generic name.

In fact, when Olijar and Ring Wraith were describing it, I thought they were using that term to just keep the offense hush-hush.

Gabe · « **Reply #43 on:** August 16, 2012, 10:27:54 AM »

I found it interesting when I was checking in decks for T1-2P and most of them looked basically the same.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #44 on:** August 16, 2012, 11:08:35 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on August 16, 2012, 08:33:51 AM

Regardless of what deck they chose, these guys were probably going to be at the top. So this year 7 of those 11 guys decided to run "The Deck", and they took half of the top 15 places with it. But if they had all ran TGT, or Disiciples, or Geneptians, or another good deck option, then I suspect that they still would have ended up in the top 15 with that.

I disagree. Good players recognize what decks are good, and play them to increase their chances of winning. So 7 of the top 15 recognized "The Deck" as the best deck. If they (we?) thought there was a better one, they/we would have played that deck instead. So while some may have done just fine with another deck, it wouldn't be optimal.

Quote from: soul seeker on August 16, 2012, 09:35:18 AM

As far as "The Deck's" name, I labeled it as "Superband" in my Ipod before I realized that they had given it such a generic name.

In fact, when Olijar and Ring Wraith were describing it, I thought they were using that term to just keep the offense hush-hush.

We couldn't think of a good name for it, and so we started calling it The Offense for awhile, but eventually it just became "The Deck".

I was broadcasting it to as many people possible because I wanted it to win.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #45 on:** August 16, 2012, 11:24:42 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 16, 2012, 10:27:54 AM

I found it interesting when I was checking in decks for T1-2P and most of them looked basically the same.

Booorrrrinnng. This is why I don't go to Nats. This is what happened when I played ROOT for one month. I faced the exact same deck three times in a row from three different people.

Never again.

Bryon · « **Reply #46 on:** August 16, 2012, 11:27:11 AM »

Quote from: Westy on August 16, 2012, 11:08:35 AM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on August 16, 2012, 08:33:51 AM
Regardless of what deck they chose, these guys were probably going to be at the top. So this year 7 of those 11 guys decided to run "The Deck", and they took half of the top 15 places with it. But if they had all ran TGT, or Disiciples, or Geneptians, or another good deck option, then I suspect that they still would have ended up in the top 15 with that.
I disagree. Good players recognize what decks are good, and play them to increase their chances of winning. So 7 of the top 15 recognized "The Deck" as the best deck. If they (we?) thought there was a better one, they/we would have played that deck instead. So while some may have done just fine with another deck, it wouldn't be optimal.

Correct. Players often "test drive" new cards as they are released, and see what works best together over the course of the year. It was a credit to the developers that so many different themes/decks lasted as long into the tournament season as they did. But it is absolutely to the credit of the players that they (once again) narrowed the field of "best decks" down to one by the national tournament.

Now it is up to the developers to make sure that "The Deck" will have a harder time winning nationals next year, while still allowing for a variety of decks to be popular and playable in the months leading up to nationals. The good news is that we have a window of time to get it right before the cards go to the printers.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #47 on:** August 16, 2012, 11:40:25 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 16, 2012, 11:24:42 AM

Quote from: Gabe on August 16, 2012, 10:27:54 AM
I found it interesting when I was checking in decks for T1-2P and most of them looked basically the same.

Booorrrrinnng. This is why I don't go to Nats. This is what happened when I played ROOT for one month. I faced the exact same deck three times in a row from three different people.

Never again.

I actually saw quite a bit of variety. I must have just not been checking in the decks that placed at the top.

All this talk of The Deck makes me laugh when I consider that it was a nearly decade old strategy that ended up winning the tournament. And makes me somewhat wish that I had played T1 using Heroless, with which I beat "The Deck" twice and Martin once in Ironman.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #48 on:** August 16, 2012, 11:46:57 AM »

That wasn't really my point. We have such creative and intelligent players in the Redemption community, to have so many of them use the same deck seems to be wasting that creativity, IMO. I understand the desire to win, but I just find it boring. That's all.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #49 on:** August 16, 2012, 11:50:15 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 16, 2012, 11:46:57 AM

That wasn't really my point. We have such creative and intelligent players in the Redemption community, to have so many of them use the same deck seems to be wasting that creativity, IMO. I understand the desire to win, but I just find it boring. That's all.

You should play T2. My 3rd place deck had a Panic Demon defense. For realz.

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Author Topic: New Expansion Pack? (Read 8409 times)

Chris

Chris

Chris

Warrior_Monk