Author Topic: Lampstand? (Read 46822 times)

Master KChief · « **Reply #25 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:13:15 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 24, 2008, 04:04:05 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on August 24, 2008, 03:59:39 PM
the simple fact that silver can hold weapons, no matter how terrible the special ability is, is still far more versatile because they still gain an ability that can be used...while orange cannot.

So you still cannot show how silver weapons make angels more powerful than demons? You can only talk about principles and potentials?

i've already shown you. you fail to understand.

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a 'male, female, genderless' identifier comes with the picture and scripture, and cannot be controlled.

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So your argument is that the developers have zero control over what cards are made or what appears on them? I find that a bizarre position.

let me break this down simple for you. lets say R&D picks a hero (for sake of argument, another michael). when it comes to identifying his gender, this is something R&D does not have control over. they cannot claim he is a female, because he is a male. these types of identifiers are uncontrollable. this has NOTHING to do with what R&D decides to make or not make. once again, fail at understanding.

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however, like i said earlier, fbtn and wc are gameplay mechanics that can be added to almost any character in redemption...so again, your female argument is invalid.

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This statement makes no sense. Teal did not have to be given its own brigade. It originally was going to be spread out. Are you now saying that it's impossible to have females in an offense of priests, supposing those priests to be folded in rather than given their own brigade? That females are not in every other brigade in Redemption? That there is zero strategic value to having a female in your deck versus none? If it makes no difference, why would the identifier for gender even exist? The more you claim this is invalid, the less sense it makes.

did i relay any of those suppositions to you? no. please stay on track here. you argument is trying to provide a clear connection between the game type 'female' and characters being 'fbtn' or 'warrior/weapon class'. it is INVALID because a female identifier is not something that can be stuck on EVERY possible card made; 'fbtn' and 'wc' are because they are regular gameplay mechanics. understand?

The Schaef · « **Reply #26 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:21:34 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 24, 2008, 04:13:15 PM

i've already shown you. you fail to understand.

You haven't shown me anything. You said that the actual cards did not matter, that it was the principle. That unto itself is the exact opposite of explaining a genuine, demonstrable advantage.

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let me break this down simple for you. lets say R&D picks a hero (for sake of argument, another michael). when it comes to identifying his gender, this is something R&D does not have control over... once again, fail at understanding.

They have control over which cards to make in the first place (e.g. Generous Widow or a Lazarus reprint). "Once again, fail at rational thought".

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you argument is trying to provide a clear connection between the game type 'female' and characters being 'fbtn' or 'warrior/weapon class'. it is INVALID...

NO. I am not trying to "provide a connection between identifiers and special abilites" and the sooner you stop saying I am and just listen for once in your life, the sooner you will understand that.

I will say this again, just as I have directly stated it before. Different cards affect cards of varying types, sometimes based on special ability, sometimes based on card type, sometimes based on a characteristic such as an identifier, sometimes based on their numerical statistics. To have cards that give advantages or disadvantages to certain cards suggests that to have or not to have those cards might be a benefit or detriment to that player. It DOES NOT MATTER whether its based on special ability or an identifier because WE HAVE CARDS THAT TARGET ALL OF THESE THINGS IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER. If you want to spend one more second telling me the reference to females is invalid, prove to me that ZERO cards in the ENTIRE GAME EVER target gender.

Or you can get off the pointless semantics debate and address the REAL POINT that each of the brigades have strengths and weaknesses in certain areas.

Master KChief · « **Reply #27 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:24:06 PM »

so oranges glaring weakness is suppossed to be no wc? ok. explain to me WHY.

The Schaef · « **Reply #28 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:26:34 PM »

Orange has no glaring weaknesses because you told me identifiers are invalid.

Master KChief · « **Reply #29 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:30:02 PM »

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...that each of the brigades have strengths and weaknesses in certain areas.

and this is what you told me. apparantly, the lack of a special ability is a weakness. so, based on this...wouldnt that make the brigade, oh, i dunno...LESS powerful than others, at least in that area?

i never said identifiers were invalid. i said you trying to draw an argument from a card being female is invalid.

The Schaef · « **Reply #30 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:35:31 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 24, 2008, 04:30:02 PM

and this is what you told me. apparantly, the lack of a special ability is a weakness. so, based on this...wouldnt that make the brigade, oh, i dunno...LESS powerful than others, at least in that area?

Oh, I dunno? Your dripping sarcasm is about as amusing as it is clever.

Yes, the lack of warriors/weapons is a disadvantage to other brigades when it comes to actually having versus not having them.

But you seem content to stop there. I took the argument one step further over a week ago, when I asked if those disadvantages made the entire brigade weaker than others, or made the game itself unbalanced. I made the point over a week ago that I do not think the lack of weapons unbalances demons (including non-orange) any more than I think the lack of female Heroes makes teal weaker than the other brigades, or the lack of deck discard in brown makes it weaker than the other brigades.

So whenever you're ready to process the difference between lacking in one area and being unbalanced overall, I've been sitting here for over a week waiting to move forward from that point.

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i never said identifiers were invalid. i said you trying to draw an argument from a card being female is invalid.

And you were 1000% wrong on that point, never mind arguing the niggles rather than understanding and addressing the point for which females were only one example.

Master KChief · « **Reply #31 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:45:09 PM »

yeah, i kinda have better things to do with my week than, oh, i dunno...concocting 10 page long fool-proof arguments over something that is in the end terribly inconsequential for a trivial card game...unlike some others. if you're waiting for that, i suggest packing a lunch.

let me sum it up for you. right off the bat, orange is lacking in warrior/weapon class. that already makes it imbalanced compared to other brigades. so, in what area does orange then make up for it in, to NOT make it an imbalanced brigade?

Kor · « **Reply #32 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:52:15 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 24, 2008, 04:45:09 PM

let me sum it up for you. right off the bat, orange is lacking in warrior/weapon class. that already makes it imbalanced compared to other brigades. so, in what area does orange then make up for it in, to NOT make it an imbalanced brigade?

-It is entirely immune to cards that target humans...like converts, as well as some discards and captures.
-It has good recursion-of both enhancements and characters
-It can play off the bottom of the discard pile-which, with a character like evil spawn, takes away the need for a draw 2 play next weapon

Master KChief · « **Reply #33 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:55:40 PM »

Quote from: Kor on August 24, 2008, 04:52:15 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on August 24, 2008, 04:45:09 PM
let me sum it up for you. right off the bat, orange is lacking in warrior/weapon class. that already makes it imbalanced compared to other brigades. so, in what area does orange then make up for it in, to NOT make it an imbalanced brigade?

-It is entirely immune to cards that target humans...like converts, as well as some discards and captures.
-It has good recursion-of both enhancements and characters
-It can play off the bottom of the discard pile-which, with a character like evil spawn, takes away the need for a draw 2 play next weapon

the last two are special abilities that any brigade is capable of having. the first only comes about because of what it is...much like schaefs 'female' argument, orange has no choice but to be demons.

however, warrior/weapon class are special abilities that for the most part seem VERY universal to me. only orange is lacking it, and no one has yet to give me a clear reason as to WHY.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #34 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:57:15 PM »

They don't seem universal to me. Why? Orange doesn't have them.

Kor · « **Reply #35 on:** August 24, 2008, 05:00:06 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 24, 2008, 04:55:40 PM

the last two are special abilities that any brigade is capable of having. the first only comes about because of what it is...much like schaefs 'female' argument, orange has no choice but to be demons.

Orange is capable of having weapons, as shown by demons of other brigades having weapons. It just doesn't have any printed yet. Also, if a brigade develops an advantage "because of what it is", that is still an advantage...and if it wasn't evened out somehow, with all else equal the brigade that was just stronger "because of what it is" would be stronger than all of the rest.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #36 on:** August 24, 2008, 05:06:12 PM »

Also, who says WC has to be a strength? Cards like Davids Mighty Men have no effect on Orange.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 24, 2008, 06:28:53 PM »

Since we are talking about Weapon Class enhancements in a thread title "Lampstand?", is it correct that a Lampstand is considered a weapon? Mayhaps there will be a Colonel Mustard promo coming out soon?

The Schaef · « **Reply #38 on:** August 24, 2008, 06:53:28 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 24, 2008, 04:45:09 PM

yeah, i kinda have better things to do with my week than, oh, i dunno...concocting 10 page long fool-proof arguments over something that is in the end terribly inconsequential for a trivial card game...unlike some others.

Well, you were the one that claimed opinions should be supported. If you don't want to back up your own arguments, that's your call.

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orange is lacking in warrior/weapon class. that already makes it imbalanced compared to other brigades.

But how does that make silver superior to orange? What can you point to and say "silver with weapons is better than orange without because of X"? The closest thing to an answer you've provided is "because they can".

Quote from: Master KChief on August 24, 2008, 04:55:40 PM

the last two are special abilities that any brigade is capable of having.

What does that have to do with anything? Brown CAN have a deck discard strength. It doesn't. Red CAN have strong fight-by-numbers cards. The closest thing they have to that is Adino plus Spear. What difference does it make whether the brigade can or cannot have certain features? Its strengths and weaknesses are derived from what it does and does not have; the capacity is of no real consequence.

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however, warrior/weapon class are special abilities that for the most part seem VERY universal to me. only orange is lacking it, and no one has yet to give me a clear reason as to WHY.

Why does there even have to be a why? They just don't. You, on the other hand, have claimed that the lack of weapons makes them inferior to all other brigades (expanded from previously saying just angels) but "not given a clear reason as to why". You've insisted that orange MUST have weapons but "not given a clear reason as to why". If weapons are added just because orange doesn't have them, wouldn't that make it an arbitrary addition, and wouldn't that run counter to your proposed purpose of developing brigades along specific lines for specific reasons?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 25, 2008, 02:49:01 PM »

"You, on the other hand, have claimed that the lack of weapons makes them inferior to all other brigades"

Why not give them weapons? They are inferrior other brigades not neccessarily becuase of lack of weapon but because of othere things. Why not give orange weapons to give them a boost?

The Schaef · « **Reply #40 on:** August 25, 2008, 02:51:10 PM »

Why weapons? Why not just ramp up the stuff they do well, like gold with deck discard?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #41 on:** August 25, 2008, 02:55:16 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 25, 2008, 02:51:10 PM

Why weapons? Why not just ramp up the stuff they do well, like gold with deck discard?

It doesn't have to be weapons all I was saying is that anything would be of great help to orange. I wish orange had gotten ranmped up in ROA.

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #42 on:** September 02, 2008, 03:23:03 AM »

Are you really spending this much time whining about how orange doesn't have warrior class characters and weapons to match? Seriously? Even if WC would make a remotely significant difference in the strength of the orange brigade, you still need to find something better to do with your time.

theElement · « **Reply #43 on:** September 02, 2008, 10:40:24 AM »

Somebody made the point that silver and other evil brigades besides orange have no good weapons, I beg to differ... Silver: Angel's Sword, Michael's Sword Evil Besides Orange: All the draw 2 play next weapons, Goliath's Armor, and many others that i don't feel like listing because I already made my point.

Though orange is a very useful and strong brigade it would be relatively nice if cactus would add some WC enhancements and characters.

The Schaef · « **Reply #44 on:** September 02, 2008, 12:04:29 PM »

I don't think anybody said that silver had NO good weapons. I specifically said that there were four that were probably worth using, and only one that people use regularly.

If anything, the draw/play next cards are a primary reason NOT to have warrior-class demons in most non-orange brigades. The Horses are among the most powerful and versatile weapons in the game, which is why a lot of the recent printings are limited within certain cultures. There aren't really any good "horse"-style weapons, so if we were to assume that weapons really made the difference about demons being effective or crummy (which they don't), to allow them to use these particular weapons would tilt the scales too far in the other direction. Then all kinds of demons could play first and angels could not, with the lone exception of Angel's Sword which only works against humans anyway.

At this point in their development I'd actually like to see what would happen if orange continued to be without warriors/weapons as their own personal quirk (similar to angel-only silver and no-female teal).

theElement · « **Reply #45 on:** September 02, 2008, 01:17:41 PM »

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At this point in their development I'd actually like to see what would happen if orange continued to be without warriors/weapons as their own personal quirk (similar to angel-only silver and no-female teal).

Agreed

I was simply arguing the point that orange would be boosted quite a bit by WC enhancements and characters added to the color, and the fact that there are more than one useful enhancements in silver.

The Schaef · « **Reply #46 on:** September 02, 2008, 01:23:23 PM »

which I already said about silver.

In what way would weapons boost orange?

theElement · « **Reply #47 on:** September 02, 2008, 01:48:45 PM »

Well.... That purely depends on what the SA's are. I can't necessarily answer that excerpt that it will give the brigade the possibility of more strategies.

TimMierz · « **Reply #48 on:** September 02, 2008, 02:12:09 PM »

It seems strange to say that it'd help them but have no clue how it'd help them.

theElement · « **Reply #49 on:** September 02, 2008, 02:21:57 PM »

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It seems strange to say that it'd help them but have no clue how it'd help them.

Okay I can't predict the abilities of possible cards in the future but if cactus adds warriors/weapons to orange in the future it will make the brigade more versatile in the strategies that can be played. Thats all I'm trying to say here.

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Author Topic: Lampstand? (Read 46822 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

theElement

The Schaef

theElement

The Schaef

theElement

theElement