Author Topic: Just an observation about artifact removal (Read 2846 times)

stefferweffer · « **on:** February 10, 2011, 02:20:50 PM »

I've always wondered this, and wanted to see if you felt the same way.

Why does it seem that all the best ways to remove/discard artifacts are EVIL? It bothered me recently when I was making a deck idea of only good cards that never harms heroes. But with only a few not too exciting exceptions, it's the evil cards that get the cool ability of shuffling, negating, or discarding artifacts. Even "worse" than this, let's look at the best cards to do that with, and see for certain if they should be "evil" cards.

Destruction of Nehushtan - One of the most powerful and awesome cards in the game, and it is an EVIL dominant. But do we remember what "Nehushtan" was? It was the snake that God told Moses to fashion onto a pole to save the people in the wilderness. When was it destroyed? When King Hezekiah saw that the people had begun worshipping it as an idol, he had it destroyed. Wasn't this a GOOD thing? What if I played this card on Asherah Pole or Golden Calf? Wouldn't that be a GOOD thing? Was it made "evil" just to help even out Type 2 decks with more evil dominats?

Captured Ark - Arguably the best and most versatile promo card. Shuffles an artifact, useable twice. What's the context? The Philistines capture the ark on the field of battle. So it "seems" to make sense that this card be evil, but let's look deeper. GOD allowed the ark to captured in that battle, and it appears that He did so for 3 reasons. 1) To kill Eli's rebellious sons (as He prophesied would happen), 2) Because the ark never should have been on that battlefield in the first place. It was not a weapon, and it was supposed to remain in the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle, and 3) As an occasion to wreak plagues upon the Philistines and to glorify His name. So are we sure that this should be an EVIL card?

Lying unto God - Rainbow colored evil enhancement that negates and discards an artifact. OK, I agree that lying unto God is an evil thing to do, but how in the world does this card's ability fit within the context of Ananias and Sapphira? Is the "artifact" their money maybe? Their money was not destroyed, and Peter says it was always theirs to keep or to give in the first place. Just seems like an odd event to use for such a different ability.

Why I think most artifact destroying cards are evil: Temple artifacts. Is it that we didn't want heroes destroying artifacts that are "good" in their purpose? If that's so, then we should have given good and evil designations to artifacts. Let's face it, some artifacts are CLEARLY good or evil in their purpose and use, yet we call them all neutral cards in Type 2. A second alternative would have been (and still is) to have good enhancements/heroes which discard "non-temple" artifacts.

Why we need more GOOD artifact destroying cards. 1) It is biblical. Think of Moses destroying the golden calf, the ark in the temple of Dagon, all the good kings who destroyed idols, Christians burning the magic books, etc. For a book that speaks so much against idolatry, you'd think we'd have more ways for the good guys to get rid of artifacts which are not "sanctioned" by God. 2) Balance. If a player, for moral or other reasons, does not want to put evil cards in his deck, then he has severely limited his ability to deal with his opponent's artifacts. Some might say that's just the cost of having no defense, but it just seems we could spread it out more evenly than it currently is.

Anyway, thanks for listening and for sharing your thoughts on this, as always.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2011, 02:26:30 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 10, 2011, 02:20:50 PM

I've always wondered this, and wanted to see if you felt the same way.

Why does it seem that all the best ways to remove/discard artifacts are EVIL? It bothered me recently when I was making a deck idea of only good cards that never harms heroes. But with only a few not too exciting exceptions, it's the evil cards that get the cool ability of shuffling, negating, or discarding artifacts. Even "worse" than this, let's look at the best cards to do that with, and see for certain if they should be "evil" cards.

Destruction of Nehushtan - One of the most powerful and awesome cards in the game, and it is an EVIL dominant. But do we remember what "Nehushtan" was? It was the snake that God told Moses to fashion onto a pole to save the people in the wilderness. When was it destroyed? When King Hezekiah saw that the people had begun worshipping it as an idol, he had it destroyed. Wasn't this a GOOD thing? What if I played this card on Asherah Pole or Golden Calf? Wouldn't that be a GOOD thing? Was it made "evil" just to help even out Type 2 decks with more evil dominats?

Captured Ark - Arguably the best and most versatile promo card. Shuffles an artifact, useable twice. What's the context? The Philistines capture the ark on the field of battle. So it "seems" to make sense that this card be evil, but let's look deeper. GOD allowed the ark to captured in that battle, and it appears that He did so for 3 reasons. 1) To kill Eli's rebellious sons (as He prophesied would happen), 2) Because the ark never should have been on that battlefield in the first place. It was not a weapon, and it was supposed to remain in the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle, and 3) As an occasion to wreak plagues upon the Philistines and to glorify His name. So are we sure that this should be an EVIL card?

Lying unto God - Rainbow colored evil enhancement that negates and discards an artifact. OK, I agree that lying unto God is an evil thing to do, but how in the world does this card's ability fit within the context of Ananias and Sapphira? Is the "artifact" their money maybe? Their money was not destroyed, and Peter says it was always theirs to keep or to give in the first place. Just seems like an odd event to use for such a different ability.

Why I think most artifact destroying cards are evil: Temple artifacts. Is it that we didn't want heroes destroying artifacts that are "good" in their purpose? If that's so, then we should have given good and evil designations to artifacts. Let's face it, some artifacts are CLEARLY good or evil in their purpose and use, yet we call them all neutral cards in Type 2. A second alternative would have been (and still is) to have good enhancements/heroes which discard "non-temple" artifacts.

Why we need more GOOD artifact destroying cards. 1) It is biblical. Think of Moses destroying the golden calf, the ark in the temple of Dagon, all the good kings who destroyed idols, Christians burning the magic books, etc. For a book that speaks so much against idolatry, you'd think we'd have more ways to get rid of artifacts which are not "sanctioned" by God. 2) Balance. If a player, for moral or other reasons, does not want to put evil cards in his deck, then he has severely limited his ability to deal with his opponent's artifacts. Some might say that's just the cost of having no defense, but it just seems we could spread it out more evenly than it currently is.

Anyway, thanks for listening and for sharing your thoughts on this, as always.

Yeah, a good artifact discarder so I can discard Ark of the Covenant.
Evil can be used for good, good cannot be used for evil.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2011, 02:29:06 PM »

Curses are often sent by God. They're still Curses, which are Evil in Redemption.

DoN is probably evil because of the whole association.

I agree LuG makes no sense.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2011, 02:31:42 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 10, 2011, 02:26:30 PM

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 10, 2011, 02:20:50 PM
I've always wondered this, and wanted to see if you felt the same way.

Why does it seem that all the best ways to remove/discard artifacts are EVIL? It bothered me recently when I was making a deck idea of only good cards that never harms heroes. But with only a few not too exciting exceptions, it's the evil cards that get the cool ability of shuffling, negating, or discarding artifacts. Even "worse" than this, let's look at the best cards to do that with, and see for certain if they should be "evil" cards.

Destruction of Nehushtan - One of the most powerful and awesome cards in the game, and it is an EVIL dominant. But do we remember what "Nehushtan" was? It was the snake that God told Moses to fashion onto a pole to save the people in the wilderness. When was it destroyed? When King Hezekiah saw that the people had begun worshipping it as an idol, he had it destroyed. Wasn't this a GOOD thing? What if I played this card on Asherah Pole or Golden Calf? Wouldn't that be a GOOD thing? Was it made "evil" just to help even out Type 2 decks with more evil dominats?

Captured Ark - Arguably the best and most versatile promo card. Shuffles an artifact, useable twice. What's the context? The Philistines capture the ark on the field of battle. So it "seems" to make sense that this card be evil, but let's look deeper. GOD allowed the ark to captured in that battle, and it appears that He did so for 3 reasons. 1) To kill Eli's rebellious sons (as He prophesied would happen), 2) Because the ark never should have been on that battlefield in the first place. It was not a weapon, and it was supposed to remain in the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle, and 3) As an occasion to wreak plagues upon the Philistines and to glorify His name. So are we sure that this should be an EVIL card?

Lying unto God - Rainbow colored evil enhancement that negates and discards an artifact. OK, I agree that lying unto God is an evil thing to do, but how in the world does this card's ability fit within the context of Ananias and Sapphira? Is the "artifact" their money maybe? Their money was not destroyed, and Peter says it was always theirs to keep or to give in the first place. Just seems like an odd event to use for such a different ability.

Why I think most artifact destroying cards are evil: Temple artifacts. Is it that we didn't want heroes destroying artifacts that are "good" in their purpose? If that's so, then we should have given good and evil designations to artifacts. Let's face it, some artifacts are CLEARLY good or evil in their purpose and use, yet we call them all neutral cards in Type 2. A second alternative would have been (and still is) to have good enhancements/heroes which discard "non-temple" artifacts.

Why we need more GOOD artifact destroying cards. 1) It is biblical. Think of Moses destroying the golden calf, the ark in the temple of Dagon, all the good kings who destroyed idols, Christians burning the magic books, etc. For a book that speaks so much against idolatry, you'd think we'd have more ways to get rid of artifacts which are not "sanctioned" by God. 2) Balance. If a player, for moral or other reasons, does not want to put evil cards in his deck, then he has severely limited his ability to deal with his opponent's artifacts. Some might say that's just the cost of having no defense, but it just seems we could spread it out more evenly than it currently is.

Anyway, thanks for listening and for sharing your thoughts on this, as always.
Yeah, a good artifact discarder so I can discard Ark of the Covenant.
Evil can be used for good, good cannot be used for evil.

Then how do you feel about Split Altar and other good cards shuffling good artifacts? Like I said, you could have good cards that destroy specifically "non-temple" artifacts and it be perfectly biblical.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2011, 02:33:41 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 10, 2011, 02:29:06 PM

Curses are often sent by God. They're still Curses, which are Evil in Redemption.

DoN is probably evil because of the whole association.

I agree LuG makes no sense.

You make a good point about Curses, in which case calling them "evil" (even for game purposes) sort of bothers me. They bring unpleasant results to the wicked, but I don't think of it as God doing something evil (and I know that you don't either, so don't take this the wrong way).

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** February 10, 2011, 03:26:59 PM »

If you assigned alignment based completely on what the outcome of it was, then every card ever would have to be good since there is nothing that happens that God does not allow and work for the good of His plan.

It's just not feasible.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** February 10, 2011, 03:49:14 PM »

First of all, it's not just that we don't want heroes destroying Temple Artifacts. If we had good ways to discard general Artifacts, then we might have Heroes discarding Holy Grail, Chariot of Fire, and various covenants. Evil people destroy both good and bad objects all of the time, but good people doing good works (good enhancements in Redemption) will generally not destroy good objects. So Biblically and thematically it makes sense.
There are good cards that can target various idols (Jacob Buries the Foreign Gods, Simon the Zealot) and some good cards that discard idols Artifacts per the Artifacts SA (Gideon, Josiah, Hezekiah, Asa on APole, Moses with Golden Calf).

As to the specific cards you mention:

I think DoN was made evil for a few reasons: First, it brought a bit of Dominant balance to the game. Before it was printed, there were 5 good dominants and 3 evil dominants, so it seemed natural for the next dominant to be Evil. Second, it was printed not just for Biblical accuracy, but also to provide a hard counter to an increasing number of Artifacts which were becoming a bigger and bigger part of the game, especially some "good" Artifacts like Three Nails. Like I said earlier, evil can disrupt evil or good (as is seen in many cases in Redemption) but good usually doesn't disrupt good thematically (with a few exceptions). Finally, the Biblical nature of the event I think is somewhat (though very loosely I might add) similar to Christ's death on the cross. His death was a necessary evil with an amazingly good result. Similarly, the destruction of the serpent was a necessary evil with a good result. That is just how I justify it, though I think the first two arguments are stronger.

Captured Ark was a clearly evil event. The Philistines were the enemies of God's chosen people, and they took one of the most sacred artifacts in the Bible. It may have been orchestrated/allowed by God, but so were many things that are evil in Redemption (anything having to do with the exile to Babylon, etc.). Also, I think of evil cards not necessarily as "opposed to God/His will" but a lot of the evil cards in Redemption have to do with members of God's chosen people, even the good ones, doing bad things, or having bad things happen to them. It's not suggesting that what God does is evil, it's that sometimes God allows evil to happen as punishment, which is what the story of the Captured Ark (and most other Curses) was.

Lying Unto God is one of the cards that was probably more made for gameplay than anything else. It comes from the G deck, which has a Sapphira-themed defense (at least partially). And there was a perceived need for an enhancement that any EC could use to get rid of an Artifact (previously, there were only a handful of Artifact-discarding enhancements). Also, consider that the G-deck pretty much needed an effective Artifact neutralizer, since an H-deck Artifact (Golden Calf) hurt its offense so much. I agree that it doesn't make sense much with the story, but at times the need for an ability trumps the need for perfect Biblical accuracy.

As to Artifact alignment, that ship has sailed ever since Household Idols and Unholy Writ were printed with the same symbol as Holy Grail and Chariot of Fire. If there would have been a difference between "good" and "evil" Artifacts, it would have had to be made apparent at that point.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:15:14 PM »

Thanks. That answer does make more sense, althought its unfortunate about the G and H starter deck "abilities before accuracy" problem.

But when you say this: "First of all, it's not just that we don't want heroes destroying Temple Artifacts. If we had good ways to discard general Artifacts, then we might have Heroes discarding Holy Grail, Chariot of Fire, and various covenants. Evil people destroy both good and bad objects all of the time, but good people doing good works (good enhancements in Redemption) will generally not destroy good objects. So Biblically and thematically it makes sense."

Does this mean that Angelic Advice and Split Altar, two good cards that might shuffle "good" or "holy" artifacts, are technically mistakes?

Also, was there are a time when artifact alignment was being considered? I always found it odd that "Moses and Elders" said to search discard pile for any "good card, except a dominant or an artifact".

I guess adding alignment to existing artifacts now (via the REG) would cause unbelievable messes because of Type 2, right?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #8 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:22:03 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 10, 2011, 04:15:14 PM

Does this mean that Angelic Advice and Split Altar, two good cards that might shuffle "good" or "holy" artifacts, are technically mistakes?
I think the reason they exist is due to the fact that they only shuffle

Also, was there are a time when artifact alignment was being considered? I always found it odd that "Moses and Elders" said to search discard pile for any "good card, except a dominant or an artifact".
Can you imagine using UW twice in T1, or six times in T2?

I guess adding alignment to existing artifacts now (via the REG) would cause unbelievable messes because of Type 2, right?
Very yes.

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:32:37 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 10, 2011, 04:22:03 PM

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 10, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
Also, was there are a time when artifact alignment was being considered? I always found it odd that "Moses and Elders" said to search discard pile for any "good card, except a dominant or an artifact".
Can you imagine using UW twice in T1, or six times in T2?

I believe he was asking why the clarification of "except an artifact" if artifacts are neutral, so you couldn't target an artifact anyway.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:37:01 PM »

Ah, right. Were artifacts considered "good" back then?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:52:47 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 10, 2011, 04:15:14 PM

Does this mean that Angelic Advice and Split Altar, two good cards that might shuffle "good" or "holy" artifacts, are technically mistakes?

Well, Split Altar was a mistake no matter what...but I digress. I think in Redemption terms, discard is effectively equivalent to destroy, whereas shuffle can mean several things; one thing it is not is a permanent way to get rid of a card. Perhaps Angelic Advice/Split Altar would be more akin to moving away from/not depending on objects (good or bad), which in some instances is a good thing. Which is why I think good cards will only ever discard specified types of Artifacts (like idols), but may negate, shuffle, or deactivate Artifacts for various reasons.

Quote

Also, was there are a time when artifact alignment was being considered? I always found it odd that "Moses and Elders" said to search discard pile for any "good card, except a dominant or an artifact".

I'm not sure about that. I had played the game for several years before Pats was released, but I never was very active in tournaments/the Redemption community until Kings came out. "Artifact" was probably added for the benefit of people who may naturally assume that Artifacts were good or evil, depending on their nature and affect on the game. If M&E were made today, it wouldn't have included "or an artifact".

Quote

I guess adding alignment to existing artifacts now (via the REG) would cause unbelievable messes because of Type 2, right?

Not only would it significantly affect T2 decks, but it would also be similar to the old method of determining if abilities converted from good to evil or vice versa. That is, do you call an Artifact good if it only helps good cards or hurts evil cards?. Or if it was used for good in the Bible? There would be a whole host of rules of thumb/exceptions/etc. that would result from such a venture. So I don't think it's feasible or practical.

I think it would have been cool if "evil" artifacts had been printed from the outset with the snake icon on Curses, as opposed to the Holy Grail being used as a symbol on idols, but like I said, that ship has sailed.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2011, 12:37:44 AM »

Quote

Also, was there are a time when artifact alignment was being considered? I always found it odd that "Moses and Elders" said to search discard pile for any "good card, except a dominant or an artifact".

I'm 99% sure that was just an over-clarification. Back then, Cactus was still in the habit of erring on the side of too much information in the SA, and players were, in general, less sure about rules and defaults, largely because they were still in disarray circa Patriarchs. Consider it akin to the second sentences on Nero and PotW.

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Author Topic: Just an observation about artifact removal (Read 2846 times)

stefferweffer

Just an observation about artifact removal

Warrior_Monk

Re: Just an observation about artifact removal

Minister Polarius

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stefferweffer

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stefferweffer

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browarod

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Professoralstad

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stefferweffer

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SomeKittens

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browarod

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SomeKittens

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Professoralstad

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Minister Polarius

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