Cactus Game Design Message Boards

So another topic got me thinking the question.  If we could choose to ban a few cards from the game to fix the "unhealthy" games, first what would they be and second would other cards arise to become problems.  So that is the question I want to ask you, well the first one at least.  I want to hold a discussion, but first I want to have the problem cards pointed out.

So here is what I'm asking.  In order, name the (up to) 10 cards that you feel need to be removed from Redemption to help promote a "more healthy game."  I do want them in order as you feel the most "unhealthy" and a little description as to why you feel the way you do about the individual cards.  Then after several people have given their opinion, and we find what those 10 cards might be, I'd love to talk about if others will actually take their place or not!

1) Samuel (RoA) - A true +3 card advantage, CBN and the piece that connects the Judges speed (Auto) to the Throne speed (Saul and Abigail) Samuel is undoubtedly among the most powerful non Dominant cards and is the lynchpin that enabled #Mayhem. Banning Samuel would have a drastic impact on the main decks in the meta. Jair has similar speed (+2 CBI) but doesn't benefit the Throne deck. There is no other obvious card that replicates all that Samuel does. Was a key piece of the 2016 "BoM" deck as well

I can’t think of anything from any of the newer sets I would include on this list. I can’t even think of 10 cards. These are very good things.

1. Samuel (tin) - Reasons stated, no foreseeable replacement

2. Uzzah - Splashiest, most accessible chump block (The Deceiver, Wages, Babel, TAS, etc) that doesn’t have a condition like Fire Foxes. Probably Sabbath Breaker or Goliath would take its Reserve spot in most decks. I am Creator looks a lot less appealing if it doesn’t have Uzzah to eat it later.

3. Haman’s Plot - Reasons stated, there are no other cards like it.

4. Angel with the Secret Name - It was either this or AuTO, and I think I’d actually choose this over Oak. CBN any Judges enhancement to any Judge just begs for abuse down the road. Given how widely-played Foreign Wives is, I truly don’t think AutO is a problem if it’s limited to Judges/Angel decks and if Sam is gone. There’s plenty of counters to protection thanks to FoM that Gideon isn’t the force he once was. For replacement, AutO literally is this card with a draw 2. Why have two Judge-tutoring angels?

5. Hezekiah’s Signet Ring - Reasons stated. Perhaps something like Covenant with Death can replace it, but CwD is a double-edged sword whereas HSR is not.

6. Ahimilek - Too broad of a removal, too easy CBN, too easy to set up with David, too easy to get in battle with Throne. In my mind, Throne can honestly stay if Ahimilek goes, as the old banding cards don’t become automatic battlewinners without Ahimilek’s removal. There really isn’t a replacement.

7. Hidden Treasures - Removes the threat of preblock ANB and anything else that causes problems. Such a limiting and precarious card. No replacement.

8. Falling Away (wo) - Reasons stated. FA (CoW) is already a replacement.


I can’t recommend NJ/TSC because they are basically the only reason games don’t time out 100% of the time, and TSC has other applications rather than grabbing SoG. Dominants are unbalanced by design, and I think the answer is to have other cards that could take SoG and/or TSC’s place in decks. Over time, these could very well be theme-tied. Banning TSC anytime soon would most assuredly backfire given how hard it is to obtain and how much people have spent just to get one. It truly is one of the few cards in the game that has value.

I may edit this later with more but these are the one's I'm completely confident about:

1. Samuel, for reasons everyone knows and have previously stated

2. NJ/TSC, accompanied by reducing the soul win count to 4. I don't expect this to ever actually happen but I think it would have been better if the game had been that way from the start

3. Uzzah, it's not very interactive, reduces deck building choices, stalls games, etc

4. Plot, gives players who have the spare funds to have spare plots and more importantly to check multiple complete decks an advantage

If a card on your list counters something else on your list that's an issue.

If a card on your list counters something else on your list that's an issue.

Is it? I imagine that listed cards that counter unlisted cards are a bigger issue.

Taking both TSC and FA(w) is removing a pair of cards that counter each other, but (IMO) makes for a healthier game with fewer negative experiences.
HSR, meanwhile, has been listed here. While it can certainly be frustrating to play against (take it from me - I play Flood and Priests, both search-heavy offenses), it is also one of the main counters that decks with a lot of searching need to take into consideration. Would it be more balanced if it hit both players, like Nazareth? Sure, but there's a reason Naz isn't in every deck. HSR helps control Auto and Sam, sure, but it's good against a lot of other decks (music, angels, flood, etc.) that would just be more dominant without it. Banning HSR, which counters cards that aren't listed here, would be a bigger issue.

I would probably ban Samuel (RoA) next.

The problem with HSR isn't what it counters, it's how it counters those things, and what it means for other counters.

Offhand, if you want a counter to ML, I can think of Covenant with Death, HSR, Image of the Beast, Golden Calf, Babel, Moses (CoW), and Naz. Many of those counter out of battle searching in ways that don't inhibit in battle searching. Of those, Cwd, Naz, and Moses affect all players, so they more or less put the game on even ground (unless you're building your deck around them). HSR doesn't have the same limitations as those, and it basically shuts the game off for one player while the other isn't affected.

This means there's almost no reason to play anything else if you want to counter Flood, tabernacle, or music decks, as anything else you play will be inferior to HSR due to the sheer one-sidedness of it and the sheer number of things it counters.

HSR is not high on my list (I would even say only the top three on my list are the ones I'd absolutely want gone ASAP), but it is only going to continue to make other counters subpar as long as it exists.

For those wanting to ban HSR because of power level and lack of deck building choices, why is YWR not on your list when it's significantly more of an auto include that HSR has ever been?

Because that doesn't stop a player from doing anything, (except for end the battle, but who plays that) it just gives you another thing you can do.