Hall of Fame - Spin off thread

[SirNobody]

Hey,

A response to Bryon's comments in the Hall of Fame thread.  Placed in a separate thread as per Prof U's request.

It is no surprise that there are more players from the North Central Region on the list, since there have been many more national tournaments in that Region (or very near that region).

It is true that the North Central Region has hosted more National Tournaments than any other region, but that's not why there are more players from the North Central Region on the list of candidates.  All five players from the North Central Region won at least half (2 or more) of their national titles at National tournaments not held in the North Central Region.  Of the 17 National Titles won by the North Central Region candidates 12 of them were won away from the North Central Region.

Andy Siew has a lot of points on the all-time list, in spite of the fact that he's never been to a National event.  I'd be curious to see how his point total ranks against everyone else, once you remove all the points they got from nationals events.

Andy Siew ranks 31st on the all-time RNRS list if you discount all points won at nationals (compared to 37th with them).  Andy Siew has 517 RNRS points.  The Hall of Fame Candidates have the following RNRS totals (discounting those won at Nationals):

Tim Maly      1238.6
Justin Alstad 1061.9
Sam Nurge     1004.6
Gabe Isbell    791.5
Josh Hey       390
Gil Kimmons    344
Ron Sias       209
Keith Bartram   10

Juan and Miguel Arriaga were also extremely good players in their day.  I almost always lost to those guys, yet, when I went to nationals during their heyday, I won.

That's kinda misleading.  Their lifetime RNRS points suggest they were not Type 2 players, and all of your wins at nationals were in Type 2.

If they'd been able to go to national tournaments like North Central players were, they would likely be Redemption legends known nationwide.

Unfortunately, the list also leaves off players who were likely as good or better than those on the list, but who never got to attend a national tournament during their ~4 year playing run.

Any player can claim that they can beat anyone, the players on this list have actually done it.  You don't get into a hall of fame on potential, you get into a hall of fame based on achievement.

It is true that Californian players have had fewer opportunities to play the best players in the country, but they haven't made much of the opportunities they have had and no one in California has even set themselves apart from the other players in California.  Every Hall of Fame candidate except Keith Bartram has at least 4 regional or national titles (5 of the 8 have at least 4 regional titles).  Other than Kurt, no California player has more than three.  Chris Bany in one visit to California acquired three regional titles, despite having accumulated zero regional in his home North Central Region over nine years.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

[YourMathTeacher]

Mark may have requested that these be put into a separate thread, but that was just so the voting could continue in spite of objections.

In other words, this thread is meaningless.

[STAMP]

And to make it more meaningless, I will actually post here.   

[Bryon]

So my point is validated: Andy Siew has more RNRS points than half the players on the player list.

Chris Bany had one very good Regional event in CA.  Any one of those categories could have gone the other way.  Andy Siew would have won his game 7-1 if he'd not blocked Chris a turn before Andy was going to win.

Brian Cooper came to our Regionals and, before the event, I beat him in 3 consecutive Type 2 games.  Does that invalidate the successes he had in other regions?

Sure, I won my consecutive titles in Type 2, not type 1.  But I was no better of a Type 2 player than Type 1.  I had WAY more experience in Type 1.  I'd never really played much Type 2 - never in a tournament until the nats where I won my first title.  The Arriagas almost always beat me in Type 1.  So did Andy Siew.  So did a couple others from further back.  When I had success at the national tournament, I was surprised.  I thought I would have faced players better than those back home.  I did not.  But no one will ever know, since those players were never allowed to go to a national event during their 4-year span.

One thing I think should be awarded in the Hall of Fame are players who are at the top of their game for over 4 years.  That is something that has not really happened much in CA.  I can't help but wonder if that would have been different if those players had gained notoriety on the national scene.  Becoming respected in this great community is an encouragement to stick with the game.

Tim, you still didn't address my comments about winning in national events that were ADJACENT to their own region.  How many players of high school age (or younger) have won national titles in Regions not their own, and not adjacent to their own?

Better yet, go ahead and just list the number of national tournaments that have taken place less than 1600 miles from each player on the "top player" list.

For our playgroup: 1 (the 2009 event, which happened too late for the best of our players)

You could also check to see how many of those players live within 500 miles of a playgroup in another state.  CA players have zero.  Players in CA don't have as many opportunities to compete in other state events if they don't place in their own.

[Red Dragon Thorn]

So my point is validated: Andy Siew has more RNRS points than half the players on the player list.

Not strictly true keep in mind that both Hey, Bartram and Sias played, and won, before the invention of RNRS. I think it would be a very good experiment to go pouring over redemption history and calculate just how many points Bartram would have had. I'm willing to be it would have been alot.

[Bryon]

So my point is validated: Andy Siew has more RNRS points than half the players on the player list.

Not strictly true keep in mind that both Hey, Bartram and Sias played, and won, before the invention of RNRS. I think it would be a very good experiment to go pouring over redemption history and calculate just how many points Bartram would have had. I'm willing to be it would have been alot.

That is an excellent point.  But, according to Tim, "You don't get into a hall of fame on potential, you get into a hall of fame based on achievement."

In my mind, some of the very top players in past years will never get to the Hall of Fame because their achievements were limited by lack of access.  And some players' scores are inflated because of the overabundance of access - to both national tournaments AND another state tournament(s) within 500 miles.

This is to take nothing away from the players who have driven the miles to another state tournament, who have played for years and years and years and years (like Tim, who would certainly get one of my votes for top 2 players).  It just shows the flaws in the system.

[lightningninja]

I agree with Bryon as one of those CA competitors who wins regionals, states, but doesn't get to go to nationals. You guys also bring up how other regions are more competitive, cause they have more players. But I'd rather play against more players than fewer, good players. In debate tournaments, if there are over 100 debaters it's amazing; that means that many more debaters who aren't the selected few that I don't want to debate fill my rounds and make it harder to debate the really good debaters. Same in Redemption. I wouldn't ever be confident in a round against Tim Maly, Gabe Isbell, and Justin Alstad, for example. The more people who aren't them, the easier it's gonna be.

Here in CA, we play the same people a lot. We have to beat the other top players in our Region numerous times in numerous events in order to win. It's tough.

[Warrior_Monk]

Same in Redemption. I wouldn't ever be confident in a round against Tim Maly, Gabe Isbell, and Justin Alstad, for example. The more people who aren't them, the easier it's gonna be.

Here in CA, we play the same people a lot. We have to beat the other top players in our Region numerous times in numerous events in order to win. It's tough.

the fact that Gabe and Tim have done so well and play each other at almost every state and regional tournament they attend is impressive. (Justin usually does T2). also, you're point of our competition being larger so it's easier is invalid, because after the first two rounds, it's tough going. now that we have RTS, we don't have to go to Nationals to play people from other places.

[EmJayBee83]

Tim, you still didn't address my comments about winning in national events that were ADJACENT to their own region.  How many players of high school age (or younger) have won national titles in Regions not their own, and not adjacent to their own?

Bryon, I'm not sure what value you think this measure has. Are you saying that your 2001 Nationals victory (Northeast region) was somehow better or more noteworthy than your victory in 2002 (North Central region)? Maybe I am unduly skeptical, but I am dubious that Gabe enjoyed some kind of advantage at the 2009 Nats, because the NC region is adjacent to the SW region.

In my mind, some of the very top players in past years will never get to the Hall of Fame because their achievements were limited by lack of access.  And some players' scores are inflated because of the overabundance of access - to both national tournaments AND another state tournament(s) within 500 miles.

For the current crop of candidates, Tim eliminated the RNRS points gained from Nationals in his most previous comparison, so that is currently moot. As far as traveling to other States goes, that is all well and good, but you are only allowed one set of RNRS points from a state tournament in a year precisely to eliminate this issue. If you want to put it another way, most of the time California players don't lose out on points because Tim or Gabe decided to drive to their State tournament and grab doubles.

Here in CA, we play the same people a lot. We have to beat the other top players in our Region numerous times in numerous events in order to win. It's tough.

Here in the MN we also play the same people a lot. We have to beat the other top players in our Region numerous times in numerous events in order to win. In addition to all of that, we also have to manage to beat a large quantity of other players just to earn a chance to face the top caliber competition. With all due respect, given comparable top-level competition, winning a tournament with more players is much more difficult than winning a tournament with fewer.

[Prof Underwood]

It just shows the flaws in the system.

There are flaws in the system, as there are in any system.  I am just trying to make as good a system as I can.  Sure there will be players who played before there were RNRS points, and who couldn't ever get to a national tournament.  There were great players in the "negro leagues" of baseball which have very spotty stats that survive, and therefore are hurt in their HoF bids.  This is inherently a problem in any project like this.  But I am trying to deal with these issues.  I've been reading these boards for many years, and I never heard of the Arriagas until this HoF stuff.  That actually encourages me that it is accomplishing one of its purposes by spotlighting people who would have otherwise been forgotten.  There have been great players over the years from all over, this spring we'll open up nominations and hopefully get a chance to hear about many others like the Arriagas, Siew, etc.

[Bryon]

If Tim or Gabe loses at state, they can go to another state event to pick up the state points.  Players in Southern CA can't do that, unless they drive 530+ miles to NV State (which is possible, but highly unlikely for high school kids).

For CA players, they only get one shot.  Players on the East have multiple shots at State points within 500 miles.

Have any of the top players picked up State points out of state?  Have any of them picked up regional points out of region?  Remove all the out-of-state state points, and out-of-region regional points from the overall rankings, and see if that makes a difference.  I don't know if that is possible, though, since it doesn't matter where you go to get your state points.  Opportunity is half the battle, and SoCA kids don't have it.

I agree it is harder to win a tournament with more players in it, assuming roughly equal average strength of players, which is next to impossible to determine.

It is also hard to win a tournament with 20 players (yesterday's local), when the top player techs his deck specifically against yours, since he knows 2 top players are using Genesis decks.    But I'm not bitter or anything... (dumb Possessing Demon!). 

[Warrior_Monk]

If Tim or Gabe loses at state, they can go to another state event to pick up the state points.  Players in Southern CA can't do that, unless they drive 530+ miles to NV State (which is possible, but highly unlikely for high school kids).

For CA players, they only get one shot.  Players on the East have multiple shots at State points within 500 miles.

Have any of the top players picked up State points out of state?  Have any of them picked up regional points out of region?  Remove all the out-of-state state points, and out-of-region regional points from the overall rankings, and see if that makes a difference.  I don't know if that is possible, though, since it doesn't matter where you go to get your state points.  Opportunity is half the battle, and SoCA kids don't have it.

I agree it is harder to win a tournament with more players in it, assuming roughly equal average strength of players, which is next to impossible to determine.

It is also hard to win a tournament with 20 players (yesterday's local), when the top player techs his deck specifically against yours, since he knows 2 top players are using Genesis decks.    But I'm not bitter or anything... (dumb Possessing Demon!). 

they both attend IA and MN. just because you win once doesn't mean you can't win again, outside of RNRS wise... and as far as the "out-of-state" goes, Tim is from Nebraska, so I'm pretty sure most of his are out of state.
and Possessing Demon should go in every deck. I love it in T2, it's awesome against RTC. stick it in a Darkness and it's phenomenal.

[Bryon]

Bryon, I'm not sure what value you think this measure has. Are you saying that your 2001 Nationals victory (Northeast region) was somehow better or more noteworthy than your victory in 2002 (North Central region)? Maybe I am unduly skeptical, but I am dubious that Gabe enjoyed some kind of advantage at the 2009 Nats, because the NC region is adjacent to the SW region.

LOL.  I'm sorry that wasn't clear.  I'm saying that players East of the rockies have had 14 national tournaments.  Multiple nationals have been relatively near them.  If not in their own region, at leaast within the adjacent region.  You know, one that they can travel to.  Within an all-day drive, or, say, 850 miles.

Before 2009, the closest nationals to CA was over 1600 miles away.  Not exactly within reach.

Tim said that players won at nationals outside of their region.  That's all well and good, but my point was HOW FAR out of their region?  My better question was the one that followed.  For each player on the "top player list," tell me how many national tournaments have been within 1600 miles?  Almost all of them, right?  For CA players, that number is 1.  For the majority of players on the "top players" list, the numebr of nationals even within 850 miles is probably a half-dozen at least.  I think access has more to do with placement on the list than most people here seem willing to admit.

The list is very region biased, and HIGHLY skewed against players west of the Rockies.

I do not fault Prof Underwood for the system.  Due to the nature of the national tournaments being where they have been, things are as they are.  It isn't the fault of Prof Underwood for sure.  And, to his credit, this discussion has opened a few peoples eyes to the plight of West Coasters, and brought out a few names of players here who would never have been known among the "favored half" of the country.  

True baseball fans acknowledge that there were stars in the negro leagues that may have been better than some of the old white baseball stars that had been lauded as "the top" players, I am hopeful that players from the East half of the US will acknowledge that there are many unsung heroes from the old west that were as good if not better than some of the top players listed above.  Otherwise, those players will forever remain underrated ONLY because they never had an opportunity to attend multiple national events, and never had an opportunity for "makeup" points by attending nearby state events.

[Warrior_Monk]

The list is very region biased, and HIGHLY skewed against players west of the Rockies.

ok, so Gabe played in CA and won everything he entered. I don't even think he's done that at a State in the NC region. So apparently, one of our best took your best head on and proved that he deserves his fame (not quite the right term for it). SoCal had their chance and failed. many other top players from the midwest were not present as well.

[Bryon]

The list is very region biased, and HIGHLY skewed against players west of the Rockies.

ok, so Gabe played in CA and won everything he entered. I don't even think he's done that at a State in the NC region. So apparently, one of our best took your best head on and proved that he deserves his fame (not quite the right term for it). SoCal had their chance and failed. many other top players from the midwest were not present as well.

Apparently you completely missed my point.  Did you read my older posts, or only the one above?  CA is at a weak point in its history, as far as strength of players goes. 

In 2000-2002, we had players named Juan and Miguel Arriaga.  They were brothers.  They were very, very good.  They almost always beat me.  I went to nationals expecting players to be better than them.  They were not.  The Arriagas and Andy Siew and a couple other players would have had an easy time placing at any nationals from 2000 to 2002.

I am not talking about now.  (though if you want to talk about now, CA players represented well in all the non-Gabe events, in spite of the fact that CA players are not nearly as good now as they used to be.)

[Warrior_Monk]

The list is very region biased, and HIGHLY skewed against players west of the Rockies.

ok, so Gabe played in CA and won everything he entered. I don't even think he's done that at a State in the NC region. So apparently, one of our best took your best head on and proved that he deserves his fame (not quite the right term for it). SoCal had their chance and failed. many other top players from the midwest were not present as well.

Apparently you completely missed my point.  Did you read my older posts, or only the one above?  CA is at a weak point in its history, as far as strength of players goes. 

In 2000-2002, we had players named Juan and Miguel Arriaga.  They were brothers.  They were very, very good.  They almost always beat me.  I went to nationals expecting players to be better than them.  They were not.  The Arriagas and Andy Siew and a couple other players would have had an easy time placing at any nationals from 2000 to 2002.

I am not talking about now.  (though if you want to talk about now, CA players represented well in all the non-Gabe events, in spite of the fact that CA players are not nearly as good now as they used to be.)

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I'm still a bit ticked at CA having nats during a recession. Later would have been fine. (on a slightly related note, I would argue against your last paragraph)

[Bryon]

More details for last paragraph.  CA kids placed in all the categories except Type 2.  CA players got 1st and 2nd in Type 1 multi; placed 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in teams; 2nd in Type 1 2-player; etc.  This is during a weak point in CA's history of player strength, and was against the top players in the country currently.

If you don't think it was against the top players in the country because so-and-so was missing, then THAT is exactly my point.  Nationals is ALWAYS missing some of the top players, and for 14 years in a row, that meant it was missing the top players from CA (and OR, WA).

[STAMP]

I support everything Bryon has been saying.  It's the same thing we in the NW have been trying to say for years.

I'm still a bit ticked at CA having nats during a recession. Later would have been fine.

Comments like this that have been made by you and others have only saddened me, and I won't deny that it's one of the many reasons I retired.  You can ask DaClock, NWJosh, 777Godspeed and others, for they all know my feelings on this subject.  A couple of years ago I was seriously conspiring hosting a West coast Nationals invitational event for all the West-coasters that can't attend the real nationals.  Call it "our" NIT to "your" NCAAs.  In the end, I decided that it might only create more hard feelings.  The East coast/West coast bias exists in all facets of life and will never change.  Hopefully there can be balance someday.

[EmJayBee83]

If Tim or Gabe loses at state, they can go to another state event to pick up the state points.

Depriving the players in the second state from getting their points.  And not benefiting them if they already have state points. (I would use myself as an example, since I go to multiple state tournaments--but I can't because I never win.)

Players in Southern CA can't do that, unless they drive 530+ miles to NV State (which is possible, but highly unlikely for high school kids).

And they can't lose their shot at getting "their" state points when a carpetbagger comes in and wins "their" tournament. Seems like a wash to me.

I'm still a bit ticked at CA having nats during a recession.

I would personally go with "saddened." It strikes me as completely unfair--and giving unwarranted fodder to the detractors--that the first West Coast nationals gets blamed for attendance issues well outside their control. (My only hope is that the next time Cactus looks to go out west, they give eighteen months notice.)

[SirNobody]

Hey,

Tim, you still didn't address my comments about winning in national events that were ADJACENT to their own region.  How many players of high school age (or younger) have won national titles in Regions not their own, and not adjacent to their own?

Technically, every region except the northeast and southeast are adjacent to the North Central Region.  Technically, six national tournaments have been held in the southwest region or a region adjacent to it.  We're really not talking about region proximity, we're talking about distance.  Using the 850 mile distance you mentioned at some point in this thread the following national titles by the candidates were won 850+ miles from their home:

Tim Maly 1/3 (new orleans)
Justin Alstad 3/4 (2x New York, 1x New Orleans)
Sam Nurge 2/2 (2x California)
Gabe Isbell 2/3 (2x California)
Joshua Hey 3/3 (2x New Orleans, 1x Pittsburgh)
Gil Kimmons 1/4 (1x Philadelphia)
Ron Sias 1/7 (1x California)
Keith Bartram 0/3

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

[YourMathTeacher]

.... and this is ultimately why the whole "Hall of Fame" idea was not handled well in the first place. We could have been all united in one cause - remembering those who should not be forgotten. We would have most likely all agreed on the qualifications and nominees, with no need for bias.

Instead, we have the same regional bias lines that we had for Nats voting, with the same animosity that lingers. I Corinthians 13 carefully defines what our love towards our Redemption brothers (and sisters    - can I just say "guys?") should look like. It appears that the "love" on these boards skipped the whole "does not take into account a wrong suffered" verse.

For those that are prepared to call me a hypocrite, you're right. I admit that I was a bit passionate about the ideal a "Hall of Fame" should have upheld. However, I am just one insignificant opinion, so have at it.

STAMP's retirement party is looking so much more inviting.

[SirNobody]

Hey,

So my point is validated: Andy Siew has more RNRS points than half the players on the player list.

If the only criteria was accumulation of RNRS points then yes, half the people on the list wouldn't be on the list.  Then again neither would Andy Siew because he's still 31st on that list even if you exclude nationals points.

Keep in mind that both Hey, Bartram and Sias played, and won, before the invention of RNRS.

Actually Joshua Hey played entirely during the RNRS era.  Bartram played primarily during the RNRS era, but he played in an area that didn't have many tournaments (in 2001 and 2002 tournaments in most parts of the country were very rare).  Ron Sias did win 5 national titles before the RNRS era (which would be 225 more points, but by the nationals limitation used those points wouldn't count anyway).  Ron Sias lives in a state that doesn't have a playgroup, thus the only tournaments he's attended are out of state which is largely why he doesn't have more RNRS points.

Have any of the top players picked up State points out of state?  Have any of them picked up regional points out of region?  Remove all the out-of-state state points, and out-of-region regional points from the overall rankings, and see if that makes a difference.  I don't know if that is possible, though, since it doesn't matter where you go to get your state points.  Opportunity is half the battle, and SoCA kids don't have it.

Discounting RNRS points won at Nationals, RNRS points won at Regionals other than the North Central Region and RNRS points won at Local, District, or State tournaments held outside of the state of Nebraksa, I end up with 735.5 RNRS points.  That's despite the fact that there have only been 4 State tournaments hosted in Nebraska.  Also despite winning nationals in 2004, and finishing 2nd in RNRS that year, by these requirements 0 of those RNRS points counted.

Justin doesn't travel much and has no Regional titles outside of the North Central Region so I imagine his total would be negligibly affected by the additional restriction.  A lot of Sam Nurge's points come from district tournaments, which also would not be affected by the added restriction.  I think some of Sam's state points would be affected, but I don't know how many of them.  Gabe has gotten a good number of RNRS points from other states and other regionals, so his total would be affected significantly.

If Tim or Gabe loses at state, they can go to another state (we event to pick up the state points.  Players in Southern CA can't do that, unless they drive 530+ miles to NV is possible, but highly unlikely for high school kids).

For CA players, they only get one shot.  Players on the East have multiple shots at State points within 500 miles.

Yes, in 2007 I had four shots at state points.  I won them all.  Of course, that year I had no shots at local points.  So I actually would have ended up with more RNRS points if three of those state tournaments had been local tournaments.

In 2008 I had three shots at state points (I attended a fourth state but opted to judge T1-2P rather than play in it).  I won two of them and finished 2nd in the third.  That year I only got one shot at district points.  Had one of the three states been a district rather than a state I would have ended up with more RNRS points (which would have actually bumped me into first place for the year in RNRS).

More shots at big tournaments isn't always the key to increasing lifetime RNRS points.  Often more shots at districts and locals can have a greater impact on a player's lifetime RNRS points.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

[Bryon]

I am sorry that I have not had the best attitude about the "top players" idea.  My first thought when I heard about the "Hall of Fame" was "uh-oh."  I tried to stay out of it.  A couple comments stepped on my proverbial toes, and I felt like I had to make a case for some players who I felt were slighted.

I completely understand why the west coast has not had many national tournaments.  I completely understand why players who live near multiple national championships would not think in concrete terms about players who have never been to one.  I am VERY thankful that Rob let us host a national event.  I am very thankful that many top dogs came to CA to compete and fellowship.  It was GREAT fun. 

I do hope that players who have had the blessing of multiple national events within a days drive will look toward giving others a similar experience.  And, that they will not think of themselves more highly than they ought, since their championships might not have been, had some better players had access to the event.

I for one have never considered myself a "top" player.  The year I went to my first nationals, I had been beat consistently all year by a couple players here: Juan and Miguel Arriaga, and there were at least a few more who were right around my level - I'd only beat them half the time.  Before I went to my next nationals, I built a couple Type 2 decks to test against a player here named Yuen.  He beat me in three consecutive games.  Then I made the trip to nationals and took first (though it could have just as easily gone to Tim that year.  He just drew more souls than I did.).  When Yuen beats me in 3 consecutive games, and I take first at nationals, I know I am not really the best in the nation.  When I get beat all year by the Arriaga brothers and go to nats and win, then I know I am not the best in the nation.  All I learned from those experiences is that CA had great players in those days (and in 1999 as well).  To have those players go ignored, while players like Keith Bartram get lauded simply because he could attend multiple nationals, just brought up feelings of sadness for the old players who never knew just how good they were.  (Well, maybe they knew.  I came home from nats with trophies 2 years in a row, and they looked at me in shock.  You!?!  Won!?!  LOL.  Then we sat down for a game and they kicked my tail.)  Maybe they did know how good they were.  Maybe I don't need to stand up for them after all. 

[Master KChief]

brian cooper is a top player because he threw carrots at a school bus full of nuns while in cali. at least, thats how the legend goes.

[Bryon]

brian cooper is a top player because he threw carrots at a school bus full of nuns while in cali. at least, thats how the legend goes.

He did throw the carrots.  But nun of them hit the bus.