Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: DDiceRC on May 15, 2013, 08:55:04 AM
-
I was a little surprised, and very pleased, by the contents of the new starter decks. As someone who has taught a number of players to play Redemption, I think these might be the easiest decks to use in a demo since A/B. By not including artifacts, sites, fortresses, etc., the new player will focus on the mechanics of game play. Other card types can be added later. (Tin XXVI itself could be used, although King Abijam might blow their minds.) The overbalance in favor of offense is also welcome. I am really looking forward to using these to introduce new players to the game.
Now, off to figure out my new Sealed Deck strategy...
-
Yes, I'm pleased with how streamlined the decks are. The number of concepts needed is far fewer. No artifacts or sites in the starters (unlike 10th Anniversary), no fortresses, no ignore, no set-aside, no immune. You need to know basic turn flow (not even needing Upkeep Phase and with a very simple Prep Phase a la Prophets-era), brigade matching, battle flow, and territory and weapon class enhancements.
These are the different ability types:
Negate
Rescue
Discard
Withdraw
Search
Draw
Topdeck
Reveal/Look
Underdeck
Remove from game
Prevent
Band
Almost all of these abilities are self-explanatory. The only ones needing more explanation for these purposes are prevent, negate, withdraw, and band, and those are quite basic too.
And some basic vocabulary, like card types and alignments, "control", "territory", and phrases like "Ruth enhancement".
Without playing with them, I can't speak to depth of play, but it feels like this will be the best set of starter decks yet.
Lots of interesting reprints, some wildly different (Vain Philosophy), some as a much better standard wording (Jephthah), and some sort of lamified, but it's a starter deck so that's fine (Sword of the Lord - we sure don't need side battles in a starter deck!).
My only question is, which Shamgar art will we see?
-
I think everyone will be glad that there won't be as many (if any) Denying Blame (redirect) ruling questions now.
-
I posted my initial thoughts in the Preview thread, but I wanted to reiterate here how much I love that there isn't any CBP/I/N in the starter decks. On top of everything Tim said (which I agree with 100%), not having the confusing aspects (for new people) of "I negate that" "You can't, it's CBI" will make it much, much easier to teach people with these new decks. And at the same time you still get the benefit of enhancements that mostly all have some sort of special ability, and also the back and forth of initiative both with numbers and with all the negates that are prevalent in the decks.
Kudos to the PTB for an awesome set. :D
I think everyone will be glad that there won't be as many (if any) Denying Blame (redirect) ruling questions now.
Indeed. :P
-
I am happy that both decks will have CM now and no burial (cause when you think about it, when you bury a lost soul, you are sending it to hell). Having both decks with CM makes it evenly match dom wise. I am also glad that there's no artifacts or fortresses in the starter decks. Sites, however, were never hard to teach so having none doesn't change much to me. I do think it would have been nice to have the old school set aside in each deck so they can learn to start keeping track of them (old school = set hero aside and gains 1/1 per turn set aside (this way they don't have to worry about the number of turns but will still get used to increasing the count (plus the look on their faces when they have a 25/25 angel :P))).
-
These are the different ability types:
Negate
Rescue
Discard
Withdraw
Search
Draw
Topdeck
Reveal/Look
Underdeck
Remove from game
Prevent
Band
For comparison, the 10 cards in the new tin have the following abilities/keywords:
Discard
Negate
Protect
Cannot be prevented
Instead
Take
Decrease
Search
Remove from game
Cannot be negated
Toss
Underdeck
That's as many abilities in 10 cards of the tin as there are in the 100 cards of the starter deck! And that's not counting triggers like "is captured", "opponent draws", "if rescue attempt is successful", etc.
I wonder how many abilities were in the G & H decks...
-
Isn't Gabriel the first post-FoOF reprint?
-
Isn't Gabriel the first post-FoOF reprint?
How do you think Samuel, Jair, Disciples Gabriel, and a few other cards aren't Reprints? And they were post-FOOF.
-
Isn't Gabriel the first post-FoOF reprint?
How do you think Samuel, Jair, Disciples Gabriel, and a few other cards aren't Reprints? And they were post-FOOF.
No, I mean, is that the first card that was first printed in FoOF+ that has been reprinted again?
-
G & H decks had:
Prevent
Cannot be negated
Discard
Cannot be prevented
Increase hand size
Band
Interrupt
Redirect
Capture
Search
Play enhancement
Decrease
Topdeck
Remove from game
Draw
Immune
Reveal/Look
Regardless
Set-aside
Increase
Protect
Ignore
Use other enhancements
First strike
Convert
Put in play
Rescue
Underdeck
Return to deck (shuffle)
Negate (including Negate all)
That's 30 different abilities, compared to 12 in the I & J decks!
-
Isn't Gabriel the first post-FoOF reprint?
How do you think Samuel, Jair, Disciples Gabriel, and a few other cards aren't Reprints? And they were post-FOOF.
No, I mean, is that the first card that was first printed in FoOF+ that has been reprinted again?
Thanks for clarification. I would think that he is.
-
Isn't Gabriel the first post-FoOF reprint?
How do you think Samuel, Jair, Disciples Gabriel, and a few other cards aren't Reprints? And they were post-FOOF.
No, I mean, is that the first card that was first printed in FoOF+ that has been reprinted again?
Simeon was printed in Faith of Our Fathers and in Disciples. Except the FoOF version and the Disciples version represent different people (one OT, one NT). Other than that, I don't believe any FooF-or-later cards share names (discounting Lost Soul), until Gabriel.
-
No, I mean, is that the first card that was first printed in FoOF+ that has been reprinted again?
I believe that is the case. We originally had a different reprint (one of the Reassuring Angel I think) but we decided we wanted the Heroes in the decks to be more of the recognizable characters in the Bible. The coolest thing ablut Gabriel is that all four versions will still be very deckable, depending on the deck strategy (Warriors can discard GEs, Kings can be banded to Daniel, Disciples can recur non-silver Luke enhancements--like Consider the Lilies for TGT decks, and Deck I can recur silver enhancements.)
As to those who think that the simplicity makes things fun, I can assure you that is the case. Testing these decks was definitely the most fun I've had in starter deck games. I'm really excited to try Sealed deck with these.
The main reason Burial isn't included in the decks is to mitigate the common problem of Soul Drought (which has always been a problem in Sealed Deck/Starter games). The ability for us to create new Doms was icing on the cake.
-
Well, there goes my deck. :P So... Solomon's temple meta this year? Looks like disciples may pick up again too, and Romans will be a bit better.
-
In response to my own question: The Shamgar art is cleaned up, SNES Mortal Kombat style.
-
The main reason Burial isn't included in the decks is to mitigate the common problem of Soul Drought (which has always been a problem in Sealed Deck/Starter games). The ability for us to create new Doms was icing on the cake.
Good word, Professor. The desire to avoid soul drought is also one reason a Site was not included. It's the reason there are several draw 1 abilities in the deck as well as a Lost Soul generation card in each deck. In all my play test games, which were many, it was uncommon for soul drought to last more than a turn or two and very uncommon to have hand clog that caused a player to need to discard at the end of their turn. Those are two aspects of the game that are not fun for either player. We attempted to minimize those as much as possible.
I'd also like to point out that we fixed something that's bothered me about every previous starter deck. There has been an imbalance of the two evil brigades (3 of one and 4 of another). That usually made it more difficult to play the EEs from one brigade. This time around each brigade has 4 characters.
-
I'd also like to point out that we fixed something that's bothered me about every previous starter deck. There has been an imbalance of the two evil brigades (3 of one and 4 of another). That usually made it more difficult to play the EEs from one brigade. This time around each brigade has 4 characters.
I noticed that, too, and am very pleased. Yay for symmetry!
-
So... Solomon's temple meta this year?
Lol no, Solomon's Temple is horrible.
-
So... Solomon's temple meta this year?
Lol no, Solomon's Temple is horrible.
Some kids haven't watched Redemption Metagaming yet ;)
-
After playing with mockups of the new starters, I'm less sanguine about them. I know it's a small sample, but right now J deck holds a 6-1 edge with a +14 differential! It doesn't matter whether I play it, my son plays it, or I'm playing solo, J is the dominant deck. (I's only win was 5-4, and if J could have blocked the last rescue it would have won on the next turn.)
The biggest difference between the two decks is the ability of Tiberius/Sorrow of Mary to underdeck dominants, with no such ability in the I deck. I"m actually playing a "use doms quickly" strategy to mitigate against it. There's nothing like making a rescue attempt with AotL in your hand only to have EmpT show up and underdeck it. I also am finding that the Philistine defense struggles, since the giants almost never get initiative and there are enopugh discard/underdeck ECs to take care of them. (The weapons do help with this, if you can get them on the giants before battle.) The one event that hasn't happened yet that I think will help I's defense is getting Delilah out to band to opposing ECs to use their abilities against them. It just hasn't gelled yet. (Part of the small sample size.)
Has anyone else tried out the new decks? Maybe you're getting the exact opposite results, so I'd like to hear it.
(On the plus side, I'm thinking of reviving my Roman defense. Tiberius alone got me thinking about that, and there are other nice gray cards in the deck.)
-
I found the phillies to be awesome. you have two weopons to kill heroes, and one giant (Lahmi?) to kill the big guys.I won 5 2 with it. only SoG and AotL got souls.
-
In response to my own question: The Shamgar art is cleaned up, SNES Mortal Kombat style.
This was great.
-
Has anyone else tried out the new decks? Maybe you're getting the exact opposite results, so I'd like to hear it.
I've lost both times I've played with the new decks I've used the J decks and lost. Of course this is most likely more indicative of my abilities as a player, and the fact that both my opponents were playtesters.
-
I've played both decks once each and haven't lost with starters yet.
-
My son and I played two more, switching decks after the first game to take out the "better player" issue (which is probably Jon anyway). J won both, 5-0 and 5-3. In the second game, J didn't draw heroes until late and actually decked out, and still won. So in our tests it's J 8-1, differential up to +21.
-
The Ruth deck just has a better offense to be honest... I am a bit disappointed the deck were not balanced more since this was a problem in playtesting but what ever. The large banding chains and easy to recur characters/negates make the offense REALLY strong.
You can win with the Disciple deck if you play smart.
Take out Elders of the City ASAP!!!! This is what makes that entire offense tick... with a well timed AW (or the other discard pile removal card) you can shut down their offense and with the large Philistines cruise on to win. Also remember the strength with the Philies is their numbers and negates. If you want to win with inish use the Brown not the Philies! The offense in the Disciple deck is pretty straight forward you just need to wait to attack as in make sure you have multiple battle winners/negates before making a attack. Also play your doms ASAP!!! Use your Aotl and CM on critical characters dont bother trying to use them as battle winners.
-
Please allow me to fanboy over the new starter deck.
In terms of the good cards in starter deck I, I really like the choices for the heroes. I like the Disciples/Angels combo. I don't think silver has been getting a lot of cards lately (or maybe that's just me). First off, a new version of Gabriel. I like it! Gathering Angel reminds me of "Chariots of Fire." I like that. And of course, I squeed at the 12/12 angelic beatstick that's in this deck! In terms of the disciples, I really like the fact we now have a new version of Peter. He's a guy who has needed a reprint for a while now. Plus, I really like the new James. (Mostly because I was named after this James.) I like the art a bit better than the previous one. And also, I adore the new artwork for Son of God! I am a sucker for Gustave Dore's artwork.
In terms of the defense, HOORAY FOR PHILLISTINES! It's great to see Lahmi, Saph, and Ishbibinob reprinted as black. Plus, the new version of a Black Brigade Delilah is great, too! She was a Phillistine, after all. In terms of the Israelites, it's just sorta meh for me. I've never been a big fan of the brown brigade.
For deck J, I never expected to see an offense based off of Ruth. I've no problems with it, though. It's pretty cool to see a theme like this brought out. Also, JUDGES! They're the reason why I like playing Gold brigade. I was excited to see a Gideon reprint. He's one of my favorite characters in the Bible. However, I was a little disappointed to see him with no special ability. But whatever, there are some cards that work well with the some of the cards in the deck.
In terms of defense, HOORAY FOR ORANGE BRIGADE! I have never had an easy time playing with orange, but maybe the new deck will help me a bit with playing it. Also, I like the Romans for this deck. I haven't played Romans before, so this will get my feet wet a bit.
Overall, I really like this starter! :D
-
Just curious-I read that the new rules provide a way to not use territory and weapon/warrior. Were playtests done with this? And is this the way we should plan to demo/intro the new decks? I think it's a great idea, but I want to make sure this has been done so. (If it turns out that J deck really is stronger, I'll hand the newbie J and play I against them- at which time I will cease drawing LSs, have my offense set up perfectly, and stomp the prospective player into the ground crying so that they never play Redemption again, while I wonder where all these cards were when I was playing this deck before. ;D )
[Current status: J 9, I 2 (finally!), +21 diff]
-
We playtested with the enhancements being used ignoring the T-class and W-class symbols.
For even more simplicity, you can play without special abilities on characters and enhancements. We were careful to include numbers on every enhancement just for that purpose. That is the way I will introduce the game.
Then, I'll play with special abilities.
Then, I'll add weapons and/or T-class.
These were designed for the new player above all else. The tin cards are for the veterans.
-
I'm extremely late to the party, but Kayleigh and I received these starter decks for Christmas, and we got to play a game with them. The simplicity and quick flow of game is nice and refreshing, without being boring. It's not how I'd always want to play, but it led to a nice change of pace. After just one play, I certainly can't say anything about balance, but even the lack of ignore and CBN/CBP/CBI abilities made it feel so much cleaner, along with the absence of "permanent" effect cards (artifacts, fortresses, and sites).
I'm going to delay dismantling these decks to add Son of God and some of the new other cards to our decks as long as possible, so we can keep doing I/J duels!
-
I'm going to delay dismantling these decks to add Son of God and some of the new other cards to our decks as long as possible, so we can keep doing I/J duels!
Thanks for this delayed feedback. I'm glad that you guys both are getting so much enjoyment from your Christmas presents :)