Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Amount of fun in a normal game: 100%
Amount of fun in a game where both me and my opponent use an offense and defense: 200%
Amount of fun in a game where I get a FTM: 0%
Amount of fun in a game where my opponent gets a FTM: LESS THAN 0%!!!!!

Last year's national winner: 6 FTM's for him, 0 FTM's for opponents.

This one card is single-handedly ruining the game. And yes, I do mean exactly that. I'm not exaggerating. I'm not overstating. If we don't get errata or an intro prep, Mayhem will undermine completely what is otherwise the best card game out there and almost balanced for the first time. All because of one card that determines the game before it begins with astonishing regularity.

Anecdotes hold no weight. Winning against a FTM is not impossible, but that's not the point.

When a broken card comes out, people complain. If it's still not fixed in the next set, it's kind of a big deal. By the third set and still as problematic as ever, enough is enough. Time for errata.

To be honest I think that FTM is WAY overrated.  Really people I and my opponent just got a new hand of six cards.  It's not that big of a deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know, maybe i'm stupid to be saying this big I really never give much to FTM.

To be honest I think that FTM is WAY overrated.  Really people I and my opponent just got a new hand of six cards.  It's not that big of a deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know, maybe i'm stupid to be saying this big I really never give much to FTM.

The person who won Natz got 6 FTM's and 0 against him. And he won Natz. Not necessarily for that reason only, but it is worth noting that the biggest tournament of the year was won by someone who got a ton of FTM's.

Quote from: Neil Da BOMB J on September 13, 2011, 12:20:14 AM

To be honest I think that FTM is WAY overrated.  Really people I and my opponent just got a new hand of six cards.  It's not that big of a deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know, maybe i'm stupid to be saying this big I really never give much to FTM.

The person who won Natz got 6 FTM's and 0 against him. And he won Natz. Not necessarily for that reason only, but it is worth noting that the biggest tournament of the year was won by someone who got a ton of FTM's.

Correlation =/= causation    There are so many variables to consider that I personally do not accept that as proper evidence.

I'm not sure why people didn't fuss about it so much in the year after TexP came out, though I suspect it might be the fact that with Disciples came a recipe for an offense that required 10-12 Heroes and only 4-6 GEs, which means the odds of a player being able to put most of his hand down before FTM went up considerably.

FTR, Sauce was raving about Mayhem from day 1.

lol

Quote from: Professoralstad on September 13, 2011, 01:05:32 AM

I'm not sure why people didn't fuss about it so much in the year after TexP came out, though I suspect it might be the fact that with Disciples came a recipe for an offense that required 10-12 Heroes and only 4-6 GEs, which means the odds of a player being able to put most of his hand down before FTM went up considerably.

FTR, Sauce was raving about Mayhem from day 1.

Word that. I said that Mayhem was far and away the best card in TXP while everyone was ranting on about grapes. I traded for like 3 right after nats for seemingly nothing because no one valued it highly enough.

There is a 7 page thread with 97 replies on the playtester side of the board about how to deal with Mayhem.  We are aware of the issue and are considering many options.

Some like intro-prep.  Some don't, since it is yet another rule for new players to have to learn, and changes the game more than players want, just for the sake of one card.

Some like this errata: "If it is not the first round, ..."  Some don't like that since you can't use it to "mulligan" and get a hero or EC, for example.

Some like this errata: "If it is your turn, or in a battle phase, ..."  Some don't like ANY errata at all and hope to avoid it if there is any possible way.

Some like this rule change: "dominants (or just evil dominants) cannot be played in the first round."  Some think that extra rules like this just alienate new players.

Some prefer to lessen the chances of FTM happening by printing new cards, such as a lost soul that protects hand (and probably deck, too, to make it more playable), and an EC that looks at opponent's hand and discards an evil dominant.  Others say that just lessening the chances of FTM happening is not enough.

Another option that some have considered is a Dominant cap identical to the Site cap.  That is, you can't have more dominants in your deck than Lost Soul cards (and Hopper doesn't count, just as it doesn't count for sites, or any deck building for that matter).

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask some opinions here.  We don't promise to go with the majority or anything, but we do like to hear what you like.  We want the game to be fun after all. 

By the way, extra points to Pol for the use of "LESS THAN 0%!!!!!"

Ranked according to which proposed "solution" on the playtester side I believe would be the most appropriate.

1. Dominant cap identical to the Site cap.  That is, you can't have more dominants in your deck than Lost Soul cards (and Hopper doesn't count, just as it doesn't count for sites, or any deck building for that matter).

2. Intro-Prep

3a.

- No players may play dominants during the first round of play. Instead, players have the option to shuffle any number of dominants back into deck and draw an equal number of cards.

3b. Rule change: "dominants (or just evil dominants) cannot be played in the first round."

4. Errata: "If it is not the first round, ..."

5. Errata: "If it is your turn, or in a battle phase, ..."

6. Printing new cards, such as a lost soul that protects hand (and probably deck, too, to make it more playable), and an EC that looks at opponent's hand and discards an evil dominant.

--------

Those ranked 1-3 take care of more than just the current Mayhem predicament and reduce the power of dominants, which I believe many players have strongly supported for years.

Kirk

Some like intro-prep.  Some don't, since it is yet another rule for new players to have to learn, and changes the game more than players want, just for the sake of one card.

We've been asking for intro-prep since long before Mayhem. Mayhem has just made it a more urgent request. As for changing the game more than players want, which players? I've never seen anything but overwhelming support for it from the community.

Some prefer to lessen the chances of FTM happening by printing new cards, such as a lost soul that protects hand (and probably deck, too, to make it more playable), and an EC that looks at opponent's hand and discards an evil dominant.  Others say that just lessening the chances of FTM happening is not enough.

The problem with that is the only thing that could stop a FTM is a LS or another Dom, and they'd have to be in the D8 while the other player has a whole turn to try to draw into a Mayhem. Many of the FTM's I've done, the Mayhem wasn't in the D8. Perhaps if there were released at the same time a LS that protected cards in hand from opponents and a LS that searched each deck for a LS and put it in play when drawn. That would up the odds of stopping FTM off your D8 from about 20% to about 40%.

Some like this rule change: "dominants (or just evil dominants) cannot be played in the first round."  Some think that extra rules like this just alienate new players.

It'd better be all doms if it happens, and not just evil. We don't want to trade FTM's for the inability to respond to an AotL with a CM. As for alienating new players, almost all card games have special rules about the very first turn or round. It's not complex. But that doesn't matter because...

Another option that some have considered is a Dominant cap identical to the Site cap.  That is, you can't have more dominants in your deck than Lost Soul cards (and Hopper doesn't count, just as it doesn't count for sites, or any deck building for that matter).

This is the best proposition I've ever heard. I'd like this even more than an intro prep. Please, Santa, will you have the tooth fairy bring me this one for St. Batholomew's Day?

My vote would be:

1. Dominant Cap

2. Intro-Prep

3. No Change (I don't see any of the other "solutions" as being beneficial for the game)