Author Topic: First Impressions on the New Set (Read 26052 times)

JSB23 · « **Reply #125 on:** August 28, 2011, 02:13:36 PM »

I guess my problem with this set is the drawing.

Last year people were complaining that Mathew was OP,
I don't see how making 8(?) clones of him in different brigades makes the game more fun.

T1 is just going to be a race to the draw X character and the themes that have multiples (purple/red) are going to win because they can draw fastest.

Josh · « **Reply #126 on:** August 28, 2011, 03:32:44 PM »

Quote from: JSB23 on August 28, 2011, 02:13:36 PM

I guess my problem with this set is the drawing.

Last year people were complaining that Mathew was OP,
I don't see how making 8(?) clones of him in different brigades makes the game more fun.

T1 is just going to be a race to the draw X character and the themes that have multiples (purple/red) are going to win because they can draw fastest.

I think this post just highlights the problem the designers/playtesters had to deal with - old cards that are OP. You can make counters, but they don't get played. Why? In order for a counter to find a way in a deck (example: RBD), you not only need its potential for being a "dead" card very low (so it is useful against most decks), but you need to draw it to counter whatever you are trying to counter. There may be many counters to Speed, like RBD, possibly even in the same deck, but if they don't get drawn in time, what does it matter?

For example, White has Words of Encouragement, First Fruits, Susanna, and Salome to speed up a TGT deck, not to mention TGT itself and one of the most ridiculous battlewinners in He is Risen!. If themes like Judges and Red Warriors didn't get drawing heroes, or super battle winners like Samuel's Edict and Bravery of David, would they ever stand a chance of getting played? No. And since printing counters is a bad way to deal with imbalances, the only solution left is to make all themes have drawing/super battlewinners.

And you could make similar short lists for Purple and Teal as well (Reach, AoCP, Pentecost, First Fruits, Zeal, Trumpet Blast, Matthew, Josh, Phinehas, TGT). These cards are so powerful, they can't be effectively countered.

JSB23 · « **Reply #127 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:11:01 PM »

That's why we need to ban cards.

I think that policy has been more detrimental to the game then anything else.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #128 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:31:43 PM »

We errata OP cards right? Why not errata a few of the drawing cards to draw less? Since the only way to counter speed is with speed, why not just flat out nerf the cards used in speed?

A deck without drawing generally loses to a deck with lots of drawing yes? Isn't that considered overpowered?

Bryon · « **Reply #129 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:54:23 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 28, 2011, 04:31:43 PM

A deck without HEROES generally loses to a deck with lots of HEROES, yes? Isn't that considered overpowered?

fify.

If you know your opponent is going to be using a lot of draw abilities, then capitalize on it somehow. Abom? Watchful Servant? Something else?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #130 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:01:34 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on August 28, 2011, 04:54:23 PM

If you know your opponent is going to be using a lot of draw abilities, then capitalize on it somehow. Abom? Watchful Servant? Something else?

I tried that already. Got owned before I could set it up.

Bryon · « **Reply #131 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:03:09 PM »

Yeah, Greeks need a search card to set up Abom quicker. Abom only works if you get it out BEFORE your opponent gets his drawing abilities going.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #132 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:04:07 PM »

Exactly. All of the speed counters are useless unless you draw them in the first 1-2 turns of the game. Therefore, if you even use a speed counter, you need speed to get it in time.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #133 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:09:55 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 28, 2011, 05:04:07 PM

Exactly. All of the speed counters are useless unless you draw them in the first 1-2 turns of the game. Therefore, if you even use a speed counter, you need speed to get it in time.

A great speed counter they could print would be something that made them shuffle in their hand and only draw, like, 6 cards. You could make it a dominant so you could play it whenever. It'd probably need a cost, so let's just say both players have to shuffle in and draw 6. You could use it first turn if you wanted! Great counter, right?

Oh, wait...

JSB23 · « **Reply #134 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:19:22 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 28, 2011, 05:04:07 PM

Exactly. All of the speed counters are useless unless you draw them in the first 1-2 turns of the game. Therefore, if you even use a speed counter, you need speed to get it in time.

So in order to counter speed you need to use speed...

I guess all cards are balanced but some are more balanced then others.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #135 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:29:04 PM »

There are plenty of speed counter cards and plenty of search abilities. If you’re that worried about speed put in a search combo or 2 to counter it???

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #136 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:43:28 PM »

Quote

For the first time since I started playing (3 years ago), red is truly overpowered. I don't feel that much elaboration is needed here - just take a look at what they've gotten. Similar feelings on what brown has received. With the new ruling on the way ability reduction works, using brown to do exactly that has become quite overpowered. Heck, even without that new ruling, territory destruction with brown is going to cause a huge ripple this year. Now admittedly, we're only a couple weeks into experience with the new set, but I think it's undeniable that red and brown (along with Genesis - both good and evil) has seen a huge boost. I'm sure my opinions on various things will change in the coming weeks and months, but right now that's my first impression. Anyone agree? Disagree?

Think boy! You answered your own question. "For the first time.... red is truly overpowered.". Exactly! Let it be strong, who could be competitive with a mono red deck last year? No complaining, let it be. And same with brown. There are PLENTY of easy counters to stop brown's decrease. And like my previous statement, who could be competitive with a decrease deck last year? Genesis, in type 2, is very strong. Characters that cause lost soul generation, drawing, with CBN plethora of battle winners, is extremely scary. But the Genesis evil side is not nearly close to overpowered.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #137 on:** August 28, 2011, 05:55:21 PM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on August 28, 2011, 05:29:04 PM

There are plenty of speed counter cards and plenty of search abilities. If you’re that worried about speed put in a search combo or 2 to counter it???

The problem is that the current meta forces you to use a fast deck, or else you just don't stand a chance. That is probably the primary reason there's so many underused themes.

I say rather than creating MORE drawing cards, work on stopping it instead.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #138 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:01:57 PM »

So if you want a theme that isn’t speed, ...
piggyback
Sure it’s a starter card but Gifts of the Magi opens the door to “underused” themes, by your definition.

But if you’re really looking speed prevention go play at least 1 Gneisses character and pull out seven years of famine. That card should dissuade people from over drawing, and that card is in this “speedy” new set.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #139 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:10:51 PM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on August 28, 2011, 06:01:57 PM

So if you want a theme that isn’t speed, ...
piggyback
Sure it’s a starter card but Gifts of the Magi opens the door to “underused” themes, by your definition.

Piggybacking is speed. You're still drawing.

Quote from: Jmbeers on August 28, 2011, 06:01:57 PM

But if you’re really looking speed prevention go play at least 1 Gneisses character and pull out seven years of famine. That card should dissuade people from over drawing, and that card is in this “speedy” new set.

Why use Seven Years of Famine when you can use Seven Years of Plenty and draw more, resulting in winning?

Jmbeers · « **Reply #140 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:16:50 PM »

But piggybacking allows you to play themes that aren’t speed. Diablo was asking for some counter cards and the tread is supposed to be about the new cards (if you go back 10 pages to Chronic’s original complaint) so I thought I use a new card as an example of a speed counter, and a rather good one at that.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #141 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:48:40 PM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on August 28, 2011, 06:16:50 PM

But piggybacking allows you to play themes that aren’t speed. Diablo was asking for some counter cards and the tread is supposed to be about the new cards (if you go back 10 pages to Chronic’s original complaint) so I thought I use a new card as an example of a speed counter, and a rather good one at that.

Speed isn't a theme. It's a style of play. It's not hard to take a non-speed theme and make it fast by adding a few cards. Releasing 8 speed cards and 1 counter isn't doing a good job at stopping it's dominance in the meta.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #142 on:** August 28, 2011, 07:48:53 PM »

People seem to be confusing "speed" and "fast." Speed is dead. No more can you have a deck with 20 drawing cards, 11 doms, 8 LS's, and 11 autowin/autoblock combos. There is a huge difference between a Red/Purple deck using Abigail and that Canaanite, and a deck with Phinehas+Zeal, ET+AoCP, King Amazing+King Basa, Jacob+Captian, and TSA.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #143 on:** August 28, 2011, 11:35:23 PM »

Disagree. Just because deck discard (I really can't think of a better example) used to use Gabriel, Confusion, and the like doesn't mean that playing a gold/silver deck makes it not a deck discard deck. Certainly the archetype has changed, but it's still the same basic strategy--draw your cards faster than your opponent. Old school speed and new school speed and Disciples speed and Warrior speed are all just different ways of using the speed archetype.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #144 on:** August 29, 2011, 10:40:09 AM »

Again, there's a big difference between "draw your whole deck as quickly as possible" and "draw faster than your opponent."

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #145 on:** August 29, 2011, 11:15:38 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 29, 2011, 10:40:09 AM

Again, there's a big difference between "draw your whole deck as quickly as possible" and "draw faster than your opponent."

If you compare speed with "fast", you'll find they can draw about the same amount. Example:

Old School Speed (Priests):
Bring Back First Fruits (D4)
RA Mahari/Claudia/ET
Words of Encouragement (D3)
Book of Hozai (D3)
Book of Jasher (D3)
Reach of Desperation (providing hand limit wasn't yet reached, which very difficult) (D3)
AoCP
+16

"Fast" Decks:
Bring back Pentecost (D3)
Fishing Boat (Let's just say D3, which I don't think is unrealistic)
4 Dolla Holla (D4)
RA Matthew (D3)
Reach of Desperation (D3)
AoCP
+16

The new school of thought allows you to use less draw cards due to being able to use Fishing Boat and Matthew over and over and over, as well as put cards down between drawing so you won't hit hand limit during the battle phase. It's better and faster than speed. If that's defined as "fast", so be it, but I would say speed has just become better.

Gabe · « **Reply #146 on:** August 29, 2011, 11:56:17 AM »

With all due respect, Andrew, that comparison is very flawed. Maybe you just tossed it together quickly without thinking it through?

"Old school speed" was a pre-Priests concept. It existed long before the set-aside draw cards were introduced to the game. It involved drawing most of your deck (if not the whole thing) in the first few turns of the game. It always used Hur+Gifts and also had Love at First Sight, in addition to other less potent drawing combos and withdraw cards so you could do it all again next turn (or on defense with a side battle). That's the "speed freak" deck where modern day "speed" got it's name. Needless to say, "old school speed" drew significantly more than 16 cards, closer to twice that many.

Your conclusion for a modern "fast" deck is probably close to accurate. It might typically draw up to 16 cards per game, if everything goes right.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #147 on:** August 29, 2011, 12:24:29 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 29, 2011, 11:56:17 AM

With all due respect, Andrew, that comparison is very flawed. Maybe you just tossed it together quickly without thinking it through?

"Old school speed" was a pre-Priests concept. It existed long before the set-aside draw cards were introduced to the game. It involved drawing most of your deck (if not the whole thing) in the first few turns of the game. It always used Hur+Gifts and also had Love at First Sight, in addition to other less potent drawing combos and withdraw cards so you could do it all again next turn (or on defense with a side battle). That's the "speed freak" deck where modern day "speed" got it's name. Needless to say, "old school speed" drew significantly more than 16 cards, closer to twice that many.

Your conclusion for a modern "fast" deck is probably close to accurate. It might typically draw up to 16 cards per game, if everything goes right.

To be fair though, those decks were never successful in T12P until Priests when you won Nationals (even though it wasn't a pure speed deck). Offensive heavy decks are a really recent phenomenon in the scope of Redemption from the perspective of a centralizing force on the meta. It wasn't until people began to cut out fluff drawing like Love at First Sight in favor of more CBN combos that fast decks really took off (at least from my view).

lp670sv · « **Reply #148 on:** August 29, 2011, 01:22:10 PM »

You want a way to counter speed? Make it like MTG. When you run out of cards in your deck, you lose. Speed just got nerfed, or people will start building HUGE speed decks.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #149 on:** August 29, 2011, 01:27:44 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 29, 2011, 11:56:17 AM

With all due respect, Andrew, that comparison is very flawed. Maybe you just tossed it together quickly without thinking it through?

Pretty much! The basic premise was to put together as much drawing as possible (and slightly realistic) in one turn.

Quote

"Old school speed" was a pre-Priests concept. It existed long before the set-aside draw cards were introduced to the game. It involved drawing most of your deck (if not the whole thing) in the first few turns of the game. It always used Hur+Gifts and also had Love at First Sight, in addition to other less potent drawing combos and withdraw cards so you could do it all again next turn (or on defense with a side battle). That's the "speed freak" deck where modern day "speed" got it's name. Needless to say, "old school speed" drew significantly more than 16 cards, closer to twice that many.

The concept was pre-priests, but since mentioned Phineas/Zeal here:

Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 28, 2011, 07:48:53 PM

People seem to be confusing "speed" and "fast." Speed is dead. No more can you have a deck with 20 drawing cards, 11 doms, 8 LS's, and 11 autowin/autoblock combos. There is a huge difference between a Red/Purple deck using Abigail and that Canaanite, and a deck with Phinehas+Zeal, ET+AoCP, King Amazing+King Basa, Jacob+Captian, and TSA.

I figured we were talking about the Priest era of speed, which was the high point if you don't include the current form of speed. From what I saw of these decks (which wasn't much, since I was always in the middle of the pack [uncommon?]), and there was also hand limit there.

Quote

Your conclusion for a modern "fast" deck is probably close to accurate. It might typically draw up to 16 cards per game, if everything goes right.

16 would be on the low end for an entire game. I'm not sure of the meta this year, so I'm primarily talking about what is still viable from last year--Disciples and TGT (less so since they don't have Matthew/Boat). And if you mix them together (Purple/White or White/Teal for RoA-TexP) it gets really ridiculous. You have First Fruits, Pentecost, Reach, Words, Susanna, Matthew, Boat, and 4 Drachma Coin in the same deck, easily. And Mayhem...

Quote from: lp670sv on August 29, 2011, 01:22:10 PM

You want a way to counter speed? Make it like MTG. When you run out of cards in your deck, you lose. Speed just got nerfed, or people will start building HUGE speed decks.

Personally, I don't like that idea. There's waay too many games even without speed that you'll deck and it comes down to who can survive. Endgame strategies would be nerfed as well, like Watchful Servant and Zebby.

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Author Topic: First Impressions on the New Set (Read 26052 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

lp670sv

Warrior_Monk