Author Topic: Do you know what a double nickel is? (Read 10847 times)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #25 on:** June 29, 2013, 12:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 29, 2013, 11:32:21 AM

We will also suggest ways to shuffle that aren't possible to manipulate so that you don't get wrongly accused (spoiler alert: 7 pile shuffle, 10+ rifles, overhand).

How about the original tried and true method?

56 card pickup.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 29, 2013, 12:39:27 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 29, 2013, 11:32:21 AM

We will also suggest ways to shuffle that aren't possible to manipulate so that you don't get wrongly accused (spoiler alert: 7 pile shuffle, 10+ rifles, overhand).

Spoiler alert--given a 56/105 card deck (T1/T2) the 7-pile shuffle is absolutely the best one to choose if your goal is to cheat in this way. In both cases--with the appropriate pre-stacking--you could naturally generate a single pile that contains all of the (7/14) lost souls plus one who-cares card. Moreoever, getting the pre-stacking in is going to be trivial in Redemption. At the end of a game, you have the lost souls mostly clumped, and it is sommon to see a player shuffle his deck after the game is concluded.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #27 on:** June 29, 2013, 05:35:22 PM »

I can't believe I'm the first person on here to mention that I'd just use a dime. Seems more efficient.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #28 on:** June 29, 2013, 06:43:58 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 29, 2013, 10:40:26 AM

Are you exaggerating on purpose here? Because I was at the FL state tournament last year, and I don't remember there being any serious cheating happening there.

There was no exaggeration, but you did not read my post carefully. There has been cheating at every one of my major tournaments. However, it is not always "serious cheating." And, as I said, I try not to make a scene, for the enjoyment of everyone else. You (and Josh) were not at the table where it occurred, so you would likely not have noticed. As a teacher, I have found it best that people not be made into a public spectacle.

Regarding my experiences at major tournaments... when one of my young players is breaking down crying, and I have to stop the game for many minutes while my wife calms them down, that definitely is not positive. But I was rather hoping I would not have to bring up specifics, or name names. Is that OK with you if I just keep generalizing?

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 29, 2013, 11:32:21 AM

The video will detail what it is, how to notice it, and what to do if you suspect it is happening. Awareness is the biggest issue.

I see. It sounds like you have a plan to make it a good preventative measure. Carry on!

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #29 on:** June 29, 2013, 08:26:05 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 29, 2013, 06:43:58 PM

I was rather hoping I would not have to bring up specifics, or name names. Is that OK with you if I just keep generalizing?

I understand your wanting to stay general. PM sent. I still felt like last year's FL State tournament was a lot of fun, and that almost everyone there had a really good time. I regret that you seem to feel differently.

Gabe · « **Reply #30 on:** June 29, 2013, 08:44:55 PM »

Sadly cheating is not uncommon at major Redemption tournaments (States and above), although I believe that there are very few players attempt to cheat. I've caught top players (including a couple people who've placed at Nationals) cheating at major tournaments. Disappointing I know.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #31 on:** June 29, 2013, 09:10:23 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 29, 2013, 08:44:55 PM

Sadly cheating is not uncommon at major Redemption tournaments (States and above), although I believe that there are very few players attempt to cheat. I've caught top players (including a couple people who've placed at Nationals) cheating at major tournaments. Disappointing I know.

I agree there are very few cheating, but I also believe it is incredibly easy for those few to do so.

Isildur · « **Reply #32 on:** June 29, 2013, 09:16:53 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 29, 2013, 08:44:55 PM

I've caught top players (including a couple people who've placed at Nationals) cheating at major tournaments. Disappointing I know.

I guess its different out here because I have any seen any cheating throughout the numerous years of tournaments Bryon has hosted in California or at any of the Nationals I have attended. The only "cheating" I have ever seen was because of pure obliviousness to the rules or rule changes that has happened through the years (I am mostly talking about myself here

).

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #33 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:03:33 PM »

This thread got me thinking. As a host, I think it may be best if I require all players to shuffle their opponents' deck before each game. I plan to implement this for regionals going forward so that it does not appear I am casting doubt on any particular player or players but rather establishing a precedent that cheating will not be tolerated.

Thoughts?

Kirk

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #34 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:11:05 PM »

Personally, I would have a huge problem if someone shuffled my deck. I have invested way too much into them to allow my opponent to bend them through bridging or other shuffling methods that affect the cards, and having them do pile shuffling after me would take too much time. A mandatory cut, or two should be all that we need to prevent cheating.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #35 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:16:58 PM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on June 29, 2013, 10:11:05 PM

Personally, I would have a huge problem if someone shuffled my deck. I have invested way too much into them to allow my opponent to bend them through bridging or other shuffling methods that affect the cards, and having them do pile shuffling after me would take too much time. A mandatory cut, or two should be all that we need to prevent cheating.

Depending on what style of double nickel stacking is going on, the cut is next to irrelevant at beating cheating.

Red · « **Reply #36 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:18:12 PM »

Some of the attitudes I've seen as a result of this thread inflames me.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #37 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:29:19 PM »

Quote from: Red on June 29, 2013, 10:18:12 PM

Some of the attitudes I've seen as a result of this thread inflames me.

You have only one goal. Brad's concern is legitimate. Just because it doesn't align with your goal doesn't mean that it is not to be heard.

Red · « **Reply #38 on:** June 29, 2013, 10:52:03 PM »

What is wrong with not wanting to get flipping cheated? Why do people get angry over that.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #39 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:02:28 PM »

If you are referring to me, I am all for preventing cheating. I just don't want people to touch my cards except to look at an ability or such. It's nothing personal. What if we did multiple cuts and put each of the piles back in a random order (still keeps the cards intact and minimizes opponent handling)? Will that solve the issue?

777Godspeed · « **Reply #40 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:03:57 PM »

I voted No because I didn't know.
Googled it and found out what it was and was saddened to see that conscious cheating has weaseled its way into Redemption tournaments. As a Host, I have only had the obvious stuff happen as pointed out before. Too many cards in hand, not reading through/comprehending abilities, accidently drawing too many/not enough and so on.... New/Advanced player mistakes. I'm still guilty of them from time to time. Players involved in cheating, ultimately, have to answer to their conscious and live with ill-gotten gains if they win. But far above that, we have a Heavenly Father who sees the heart and motives behind the action, even if the player believes no one will know or catch them our Heavenly Father knows and has caught them.

Godspeed,
Mike

CJSports · « **Reply #41 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:10:48 PM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on June 29, 2013, 11:02:28 PM

If you are referring to me, I am all for preventing cheating. I just don't want people to touch my cards except to look at an ability or such. It's nothing personal. What if we did multiple cuts and put each of the piles back in a random order (still keeps the cards intact and minimizes opponent handling)? Will that solve the issue?

The only problem with that is you would have to cut it a ridiculous amount of times so as to break up a double nickel. I suppose one option to have all players do the pile shuffle but have them do it with a different number of piles each time and a random number so no one could set up their decks. I don't know how well this would break up a double nickel because I have not tried it before.

TheMarti · « **Reply #42 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:23:13 PM »

I don't play as much anymore, but I'm with Brad. I put a lot of time into keeping my cards in tip-top shape, and to hand it to an RLK or someone who doesn't put as much care into how they handle their cards... that makes me cringe inside. Like, to the point of making my stomach turn cringe. Yikes.

I am all about the prevention of cheating, but that's taking it a wee bit too far. I think education is the best answer, and keeping an eye out for it.

What I find shameful about all of this is that we have to talk about this kind of stuff for a Christian card game. Especially because people are mentioning that top players are doing this crap. But, that's a discussion for another thread.

~Marti

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #43 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:28:02 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 29, 2013, 08:26:05 PM

I still felt like last year's FL State tournament was a lot of fun, and that almost everyone there had a really good time. I regret that you seem to feel differently.

That's the funny thing about being the host versus being a player. As a player, you only see the games you play in (or choose to watch). As a host, I have to watch all the games and be ready for a ruling. I have to make fast, accurate decisions that may affect the outcome of the rankings. I may be the only one that finds this stressful, but that's just the way my mind works. Add in the fact that I have a disproportionate number of negative events comparative to other hosts, and you may begin to see my side of things.

Believe me that I am glad that the participants at my tournaments leave having enjoyed their time. But know that the behind-the-scenes life is not as glorious as being in the spotlight. The fact that I can cover up the negativity so that it doesn't spoil others' fun is not as easy as it may seem.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #44 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:31:46 PM »

what could be done about cheating is to have everyone shuffle in stacks, and let the opponent choose what order to put the stacks in. (pointing ,YMT, so as not to mess up cards) and then cut too. I mean, I dont know how well this suggestion would work, but it just might.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #45 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:34:18 PM »

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on June 29, 2013, 11:31:46 PM

what could be done about cheating is to have everyone shuffle in stacks, and let the opponent choose what order to put the stacks in. (pointing ,YMT, so as not to mess up cards) and then cut too. I mean, I dont know how well this suggestion would work, but it just might.

That wouldn't work at all.

Quote from: The Marti on June 29, 2013, 11:23:13 PM

What I find shameful about all of this is that we have to talk about this kind of stuff for a Christian card game. Especially because people are mentioning that top players are doing this crap. But, that's a discussion for another thread.

~Marti

I don't disagree but this is also the reason I could walk into Nationals and double nickel my way to victory without really trying that hard. I'd lose a game or two early on but I'd be able to draw out well when it counted.

We just need some awareness.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #46 on:** June 30, 2013, 12:13:13 AM »

I am fine with an opponent shuffling my decks. I think its a good idea Kirk. If you worried about someone ruining your cards you have legitimate concern but remember the cards you are playing are considered played and not legitimate for mint trading anyways.

CJSports · « **Reply #47 on:** June 30, 2013, 12:02:22 PM »

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on June 29, 2013, 11:31:46 PM

what could be done about cheating is to have everyone shuffle in stacks, and let the opponent choose what order to put the stacks in. (pointing ,YMT, so as not to mess up cards) and then cut too. I mean, I dont know how well this suggestion would work, but it just might.

The point of a double nickel is that you get a perfectly balanced draw, so it doesn't matter what pile order you put it in.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #48 on:** June 30, 2013, 08:52:31 PM »

Quote from: CJSports on June 30, 2013, 12:02:22 PM

The point of a double nickel is that you get a perfectly balanced draw, so it doesn't matter what pile order you put it in.

If I'm understanding the double nickel correctly, then this "balanced draw" is all that we're talking about right. People aren't actually controlling what order they get specific cards, and have no idea when any specific cards might come up. This technique would only ensure that they don't draw a bunch of LSs or a bunch of GEs, etc. at the same time.

Am I getting this correctly?

@YMT - As a host myself, I totally get what you are saying about there being a whole extra layer of stress as a host that is not there as a player. I applaud you for doing a great job at ensuring that your players have a great time at your tournaments. Keep up the good work!

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #49 on:** June 30, 2013, 08:58:48 PM »

I don't think you can double nickel your way to do anything other then n what you said but Emjaybee's 7x15 will clump lost souls at the top precut. I am sure you can do something like that in type one also.

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Author Topic: Do you know what a double nickel is? (Read 10847 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

TheMarti

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13