Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: Alex_Olijar on June 28, 2013, 08:14:17 PM
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Please don't spoil what it is if you know. I was just curious if anyone besides Gabe or MKC knows. This is a future Redemption MetaGaming topic.
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That's the reason I always insist my opponents' do a normal shuffle as well.
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It's the reason I always reserve my right to shuffle my opponents deck.
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the national speed limit of 55 miles per hour as established in 1974 on U.S. highways. boi.
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A steak house in Texas.
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Voted no, then googled it and realized I do (and can apply it), just not by that name.
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Voted no, then googled it and realized I do (and can apply it), just not by that name.
Same!
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I also didn't know what it was without googling it. However I have long been aware of the possibility of people doing this sort of thing. Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.
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I also didn't know what it was without googling it. However I have long been aware of the possibility of people doing this sort of thing. Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.
FWIW, Pokemon has never had a big issue with it until recently. And it's still not a "big" issue, it's just been brought to light recently.
Magic has always had Mana-Weaving though.
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I klnow know what is is. I just dont understand it really. isnt it just stacking your deck?
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It's a little bit more intricate than stacking and more importantly it doesn't look incredibly suspicious based on how most people normally shuffle. We will be doing a segment on it next video. Westy and I can both it fairl proficiently (it's not hard if you know math though to be fair).
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It's probably the easiest of the myriad ways of cheating.
For one, unlike palming, you don't actually have to have any dexterity or any other physical ability to do it.
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My question:
Wouldn't double nickeling be both an advantage AND a disadvantage to a deck in redemption?
You may get a more even flow of characters and enhancements, but lost souls as well. So, you may get a smoother draw, but the opponent won't be facing a soul drought.
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Lambo,
Yes, you're technically correct. However, other games are going for those consistent draws, in Redemption, you want lost soul clumps, so you simply modify your stacks, you're no longer truly doing a double-nickel, but you are still manipulating the card order, hopefully resulting in a clump of souls towards the bottom. I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.
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Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.
You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments. This is another major reason (besides money) that I will not be hosting tournaments any higher than a District any more.
I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.
So we will have a video teaching people how to cheat?
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I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.
So we will have a video teaching people how to cheat?
If somebody wants to cheat, they can figure it out pretty easily. Cheating is easy. Showing people what to look for and why it's cheating is an entirely different story. Catching cheaters can be pretty hard, but awareness is key in this. I would hope that nobody in Redemption would do such a thing, but we just can't expect everybody to be perfect, so we do what we can to prevent it.
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Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.
You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments. This is another major reason (besides money) that I will not be hosting tournaments any higher than a District any more.
He is naive and you are rediculous. We live in a sin cursed world. The fact some people are dishonest shouldn't be a reason to stop hosting.(money is valid however)
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If somebody wants to cheat, they can figure it out pretty easily. Cheating is easy.
I agree with your sentiment in general, but I have found that these things educate people who are not good cheaters to be better cheaters. It also instills ideas in people who might not otherwise have thought of trying it. Naturally this will depend on the presentation, which I know you guys will slant toward cheat prevention, but I still caution that this idea may backfire.
He is naive and you are rediculous. We live in a sin cursed world. The fact some people are dishonest shouldn't be a reason to stop hosting.(money is valid however)
I see no reason why I should spend my money to fuel the over-competitive nature of certain individuals. My players work hard to improve their decks and try to do well at tournaments. To have "ringers" come in and take all the prizes, sometimes dishonestly, does not give me incentive to keep funding them.
As a disclaimer, I will likely keep hosting local and/or district tournaments for my playgroup (when money allows), but I will not be hosting larger tournaments, which is where all of my negative experiences have taken place. There is nothing "rediculous" about that. BTW, was that misspelling intentional because of your screen name? If so, that was awesome. :D
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I just don't know how to spell that word... But onto my point. Unless people are dishonest or bad sports "Over-Competitive" isn't something that really exists in my book. Competetition isn't truly a bad thing. If players are trying to improve honestly(not through cheating) they should be focusing on improving play skill(I will have a series of videos and articles to teach basic play strategy.)
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If there is a problem with a certain person cheating, then mabey do something to make it harder on htem. dont make a public display of it, but mabey have them give you there deck in between games so they cant stack their deck or something.
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I just don't know how to spell that word...
Oh, nvm. I had to override the i with an e because my spell-checker corrected it automatically. It must be my OS. I thought you had done that, too. I was not making light of your spelling. We all have words that drive us crazy trying to spell correctly. ;)
If there is a problem with a certain person cheating, then mabey do something to make it harder on htem. dont make a public display of it, but mabey have them give you there deck in between games so they cant stack their deck or something.
I have tried to subtly let them know that I am on to them. However, as a host, I don't have time to be keeping track of a potential cheater throughout the tournament. I can do that as a teacher in school, but that is not what I like to do in my free time during a hobby. :)
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Wouldn't double nickeling be both an advantage AND a disadvantage to a deck in redemption?
You may get a more even flow of characters and enhancements, but lost souls as well. So, you may get a smoother draw, but the opponent won't be facing a soul drought.
True, that is why--for the professional Redemption cheat--I suggest what I call the 7x15 shuffle in T2. You start with a 105-card deck that has all the Lost souls near the top and everything else interleaved. Then you do a 15-pile Cactus shuffle, put all the cards back together into a big deck and then do a 7-pile cactus shuffle. (Look how awesome I am--I shuffled my desk twice just to be safe. ;)) This technique will--by the inexorable laws of mathematics--return the deck to the original unshuffled state. The only drawback is that your opponent must be an unwitting co-conspirator to get this to work. If your opponent declines the offer to cut your deck then you have an almost guaranteed loss as you will end up drawing all of your lost souls on the initial 8-card pull.*
The same thing would also work in a 7x8 shuffle for a certain-sized deck in T1 deck, but if you want to find out more on how that technique works, you need to pay for my advanced course. ;)
*When faced with this happenstance I use my patented "hide lost souls in my hand and artifact pile" technique. This is also taught in the advanced course.
If somebody wants to cheat, they can figure it out pretty easily.
Of they could simply pay for my all inclusive bells and whistle advanced course.
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You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments.
Are you exaggerating on purpose here? Because I was at the FL state tournament last year, and I don't remember there being any serious cheating happening there. I think there was one player who played a bit overly slow, but they were a young kid, so that's understandable. I also think I remember my own daughter kept more than 8 cards in her hand at one point (also a poor choice common among young players). But both of these situations were dealt with very easily, and didn't seem to affect the overall tournament experience of anyone there. Everyone seemed to have a good time.
So did something terrible happen that I just didn't pick up on, or have you actually had a positive experience with a major tournament?
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You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments.
Are you exaggerating on purpose here? Because I was at the FL state tournament last year, and I don't remember there being any serious cheating happening there. I think there was one player who played a bit overly slow, but they were a young kid, so that's understandable. I also think I remember my own daughter kept more than 8 cards in her hand at one point (also a poor choice common among young players). But both of these situations were dealt with very easily, and didn't seem to affect the overall tournament experience of anyone there. Everyone seemed to have a good time.
So did something terrible happen that I just didn't pick up on, or have you actually had a positive experience with a major tournament?
Same here? O_o; I might of just missed something.
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Lambo,
Yes, you're technically correct. However, other games are going for those consistent draws, in Redemption, you want lost soul clumps, so you simply modify your stacks, you're no longer truly doing a double-nickel, but you are still manipulating the card order, hopefully resulting in a clump of souls towards the bottom. I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.
I use the term double nickel primarily to draw awareness. You are correct that I will probably spend most of the time discussing the lumping of souls. With proper cutting, I can probably place my bottom 10 with all 7 souls. Granted, my opponent cutting would mean I need some luck, but it would work enough at a big tournament to be worth trying.
I think Westy has been working on a more standard double nickel. I personally don't see a ton of value in it unless you do it in the first round and place groups of 8 cards together (aka hands) that each give you a combo rescue and combo block. It's just extremely hard to do.
Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't think that ever been part of a game where someone was intentionally trying to cheat. I think it's one of the things that sets the Redemption community apart from the communities of some of the other big-name CCGs.
You are naïve. I have already had to deal with cheating at all of my major tournaments. This is another major reason (besides money) that I will not be hosting tournaments any higher than a District any more.
I'm looking forward to Westy and Alex showing off the technique in the next stream. I'm sure they'll flip the deck over and show you what order the cards ended up in.
So we will have a video teaching people how to cheat?
The video will detail what it is, how to notice it, and what to do if you suspect it is happening. Awareness is the biggest issue. Because pile shuffling is standard, doing a double 5 pile shuffle would not be out of the ordinary (I personally use a 8 pile shuffle to manipulate, but its also really easy to tell I'm manipulating if you watch what I do closely enough). We will also suggest ways to shuffle that aren't possible to manipulate so that you don't get wrongly accused (spoiler alert: 7 pile shuffle, 10+ rifles, overhand).
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We will also suggest ways to shuffle that aren't possible to manipulate so that you don't get wrongly accused (spoiler alert: 7 pile shuffle, 10+ rifles, overhand).
How about the original tried and true method?
56 card pickup.
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We will also suggest ways to shuffle that aren't possible to manipulate so that you don't get wrongly accused (spoiler alert: 7 pile shuffle, 10+ rifles, overhand).
Spoiler alert--given a 56/105 card deck (T1/T2) the 7-pile shuffle is absolutely the best one to choose if your goal is to cheat in this way. In both cases--with the appropriate pre-stacking--you could naturally generate a single pile that contains all of the (7/14) lost souls plus one who-cares card. Moreoever, getting the pre-stacking in is going to be trivial in Redemption. At the end of a game, you have the lost souls mostly clumped, and it is sommon to see a player shuffle his deck after the game is concluded.
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I can't believe I'm the first person on here to mention that I'd just use a dime. Seems more efficient.
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Are you exaggerating on purpose here? Because I was at the FL state tournament last year, and I don't remember there being any serious cheating happening there.
There was no exaggeration, but you did not read my post carefully. There has been cheating at every one of my major tournaments. However, it is not always "serious cheating." And, as I said, I try not to make a scene, for the enjoyment of everyone else. You (and Josh) were not at the table where it occurred, so you would likely not have noticed. As a teacher, I have found it best that people not be made into a public spectacle.
Regarding my experiences at major tournaments... when one of my young players is breaking down crying, and I have to stop the game for many minutes while my wife calms them down, that definitely is not positive. But I was rather hoping I would not have to bring up specifics, or name names. Is that OK with you if I just keep generalizing?
The video will detail what it is, how to notice it, and what to do if you suspect it is happening. Awareness is the biggest issue.
I see. It sounds like you have a plan to make it a good preventative measure. Carry on! ;D
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I was rather hoping I would not have to bring up specifics, or name names. Is that OK with you if I just keep generalizing?
I understand your wanting to stay general. PM sent. I still felt like last year's FL State tournament was a lot of fun, and that almost everyone there had a really good time. I regret that you seem to feel differently.
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Sadly cheating is not uncommon at major Redemption tournaments (States and above), although I believe that there are very few players attempt to cheat. I've caught top players (including a couple people who've placed at Nationals) cheating at major tournaments. Disappointing I know.
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Sadly cheating is not uncommon at major Redemption tournaments (States and above), although I believe that there are very few players attempt to cheat. I've caught top players (including a couple people who've placed at Nationals) cheating at major tournaments. Disappointing I know.
I agree there are very few cheating, but I also believe it is incredibly easy for those few to do so.
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I've caught top players (including a couple people who've placed at Nationals) cheating at major tournaments. Disappointing I know.
I guess its different out here because I have any seen any cheating throughout the numerous years of tournaments Bryon has hosted in California or at any of the Nationals I have attended. The only "cheating" I have ever seen was because of pure obliviousness to the rules or rule changes that has happened through the years (I am mostly talking about myself here :P).
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This thread got me thinking. As a host, I think it may be best if I require all players to shuffle their opponents' deck before each game. I plan to implement this for regionals going forward so that it does not appear I am casting doubt on any particular player or players but rather establishing a precedent that cheating will not be tolerated.
Thoughts?
Kirk
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Personally, I would have a huge problem if someone shuffled my deck. I have invested way too much into them to allow my opponent to bend them through bridging or other shuffling methods that affect the cards, and having them do pile shuffling after me would take too much time. A mandatory cut, or two should be all that we need to prevent cheating.
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Personally, I would have a huge problem if someone shuffled my deck. I have invested way too much into them to allow my opponent to bend them through bridging or other shuffling methods that affect the cards, and having them do pile shuffling after me would take too much time. A mandatory cut, or two should be all that we need to prevent cheating.
Depending on what style of double nickel stacking is going on, the cut is next to irrelevant at beating cheating.
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Some of the attitudes I've seen as a result of this thread inflames me.
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Some of the attitudes I've seen as a result of this thread inflames me.
You have only one goal. Brad's concern is legitimate. Just because it doesn't align with your goal doesn't mean that it is not to be heard.
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What is wrong with not wanting to get flipping cheated? Why do people get angry over that.
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If you are referring to me, I am all for preventing cheating. I just don't want people to touch my cards except to look at an ability or such. It's nothing personal. What if we did multiple cuts and put each of the piles back in a random order (still keeps the cards intact and minimizes opponent handling)? Will that solve the issue?
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I voted No because I didn't know.
Googled it and found out what it was and was saddened to see that conscious cheating has weaseled its way into Redemption tournaments. As a Host, I have only had the obvious stuff happen as pointed out before. Too many cards in hand, not reading through/comprehending abilities, accidently drawing too many/not enough and so on.... New/Advanced player mistakes. I'm still guilty of them from time to time. Players involved in cheating, ultimately, have to answer to their conscious and live with ill-gotten gains if they win. But far above that, we have a Heavenly Father who sees the heart and motives behind the action, even if the player believes no one will know or catch them our Heavenly Father knows and has caught them.
Godspeed,
Mike
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If you are referring to me, I am all for preventing cheating. I just don't want people to touch my cards except to look at an ability or such. It's nothing personal. What if we did multiple cuts and put each of the piles back in a random order (still keeps the cards intact and minimizes opponent handling)? Will that solve the issue?
The only problem with that is you would have to cut it a ridiculous amount of times so as to break up a double nickel. I suppose one option to have all players do the pile shuffle but have them do it with a different number of piles each time and a random number so no one could set up their decks. I don't know how well this would break up a double nickel because I have not tried it before.
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I don't play as much anymore, but I'm with Brad. I put a lot of time into keeping my cards in tip-top shape, and to hand it to an RLK or someone who doesn't put as much care into how they handle their cards... that makes me cringe inside. Like, to the point of making my stomach turn cringe. Yikes.
I am all about the prevention of cheating, but that's taking it a wee bit too far. I think education is the best answer, and keeping an eye out for it.
What I find shameful about all of this is that we have to talk about this kind of stuff for a Christian card game. Especially because people are mentioning that top players are doing this crap. But, that's a discussion for another thread.
~Marti
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I still felt like last year's FL State tournament was a lot of fun, and that almost everyone there had a really good time. I regret that you seem to feel differently.
That's the funny thing about being the host versus being a player. As a player, you only see the games you play in (or choose to watch). As a host, I have to watch all the games and be ready for a ruling. I have to make fast, accurate decisions that may affect the outcome of the rankings. I may be the only one that finds this stressful, but that's just the way my mind works. Add in the fact that I have a disproportionate number of negative events comparative to other hosts, and you may begin to see my side of things.
Believe me that I am glad that the participants at my tournaments leave having enjoyed their time. But know that the behind-the-scenes life is not as glorious as being in the spotlight. The fact that I can cover up the negativity so that it doesn't spoil others' fun is not as easy as it may seem.
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what could be done about cheating is to have everyone shuffle in stacks, and let the opponent choose what order to put the stacks in. (pointing ,YMT, so as not to mess up cards) and then cut too. I mean, I dont know how well this suggestion would work, but it just might.
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what could be done about cheating is to have everyone shuffle in stacks, and let the opponent choose what order to put the stacks in. (pointing ,YMT, so as not to mess up cards) and then cut too. I mean, I dont know how well this suggestion would work, but it just might.
That wouldn't work at all.
What I find shameful about all of this is that we have to talk about this kind of stuff for a Christian card game. Especially because people are mentioning that top players are doing this crap. But, that's a discussion for another thread.
~Marti
I don't disagree but this is also the reason I could walk into Nationals and double nickel my way to victory without really trying that hard. I'd lose a game or two early on but I'd be able to draw out well when it counted.
We just need some awareness.
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I am fine with an opponent shuffling my decks. I think its a good idea Kirk. If you worried about someone ruining your cards you have legitimate concern but remember the cards you are playing are considered played and not legitimate for mint trading anyways.
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what could be done about cheating is to have everyone shuffle in stacks, and let the opponent choose what order to put the stacks in. (pointing ,YMT, so as not to mess up cards) and then cut too. I mean, I dont know how well this suggestion would work, but it just might.
The point of a double nickel is that you get a perfectly balanced draw, so it doesn't matter what pile order you put it in.
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The point of a double nickel is that you get a perfectly balanced draw, so it doesn't matter what pile order you put it in.
If I'm understanding the double nickel correctly, then this "balanced draw" is all that we're talking about right. People aren't actually controlling what order they get specific cards, and have no idea when any specific cards might come up. This technique would only ensure that they don't draw a bunch of LSs or a bunch of GEs, etc. at the same time.
Am I getting this correctly?
@YMT - As a host myself, I totally get what you are saying about there being a whole extra layer of stress as a host that is not there as a player. I applaud you for doing a great job at ensuring that your players have a great time at your tournaments. Keep up the good work!
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I don't think you can double nickel your way to do anything other then n what you said but Emjaybee's 7x15 will clump lost souls at the top precut. I am sure you can do something like that in type one also.
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How about this way to fix it? the opponent decides the amount of piles that you shuffle your deck into. you could pick anywhere from 3 to 8.
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How about this way to fix it? the opponent decides the amount of piles that you shuffle your deck into. you could pick anywhere from 3 to 8.
Yes... I'm sure judges would love being called over because little billy shuffled into 4 piles instead of 5.
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The best way to counter cheating is to be aware of how people might cheat. If you suspect your opponent is cheating, you have every right via game rule to shuffle their deck yourself. Likewise, I would argue that a player has the right to insist that their opponent not use certain methods (e.g. bridging) when shuffling their deck. I plan on going into Nats this year with the intention of shuffling my opponent's deck before each and every game. An extra 2 minutes is a small price to pay.
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Now, Now Gentleman.
Lets play nice.
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As I don't think Westy/Olijar have provided a video yet, here is a try-it-yourself Redemption equivalent of the no-frills-small-hassle stacked shuffle[1,2] for a 56-card deck with notes...
At the end of the game previous[3]
- Pull out all seven lost souls[4]
- Do an 8-pile Cactus shuffle with the non-LS cards
- Place one LS on seven of the eight piles.
- Gather the cards into a deck and place them on the table for the next game.
At the beginning of the game
- Do a 7-pile Cactus shuffle
- Gather the deck picking the first pile shuffled into to go on top[5]
- Hope your opponent cuts your deck[6]
Result: A deck where all your lost souls are clumped together. If your opponent did cut the deck this clump will be somewhere away from the top.
Notes:
- No, really...take a 56 card deck and try this for yourself.
- By no-frills-small hassle I mean all we are going to do is clump the lost souls together in a known location. This will win most games.
- Shuffling a deck immediately following a game is a very common practice (maybe even the norm) for most tournaments I have been at.
- Either all the LS will come out in a game or your opponent will help by asking you to prove that you do indeed have the requisite number of LS in you deck (since you will have drawn none).
- You can verify for yourself that all seven of the lost souls are now clumped in the top eight cards.
- If they don't cut all of your LS are coming out on the initial draw--too bad for you, cheater-baby.
I will leave detection and host counter-measures as a topic for further discussion.
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The plan is tomorrow