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When I first taught this game to kids in this area, we used descriptions of strength and toughness that are similar to what you will find on the REG right now.  The REG calls Strength the "assaulting power" of a character, and we always saw this as a perceived measure of how courageous and strong, either physically or spiritually or both, the character is in their goal of redeeming lost souls.  The REG calls Toughness the "resistance power" of a character, and we always saw this as a perceived measure of how much steadfastness, endurance, or evil physical defenses a person has inn their fight against temptation, trials and enemies.

The cards from the earliest sets seemed to "make sense" when compared to the descriptions above.  Leviathan was appropriately monstrous at 12/12.  Warrior guys were a tough 8/8.  Phillistine Giants were 10/10.  Michael was 12/8.  I especially liked Job having 12 toughness.  It really "made sense" to me that he would be so strong defensively. 

But other numbers never made much sense to me, like the shepherd David having 10 "assaulting power" but only 2 "resistance power"?  David was probably at his most faithful and strongest reistance BEFORE he became King David, not after.  Then the designers started doing clever things with the numbers, and tying the numbers of the character more to numbers mentioned in the text.  I thought that this was neat at the time, but now I'm not so sure.  Enhancements, yeah, go ahead, but when you start tying Jacob's sons' strength and toughness to where they fell numerically, I think we send a confusing message.  Maybe its because we are "mixing" physical prowess with spiritual prowess, like the Samson promo having 12 strength because he was so physically strong.  I first thought the 1/10 on the Thankful Leper was really clever (because he was the thankful one out of 10), but how do you explain his 10 toughness when compared with the generous widow, who is 2/2 because she threw in her last 2 mites.  Should we really be implying that the leper had or demonstrated 5 times more "resistance power" than the widow?

It further seems to me that wanting characters who were better at getting initiative factored into some of these numbers, like someone somewhere said "Green needs a low numbered character.  Let's make Joel 1/1", but what in the bible makes us label Joel so insignificantly?  Consider also the latest version of Joseph, who is now 2/2.  Joseph is one of my favorite characters in all the bible, as such a great example of faith and endurance, and we give him the same numbers as Lot?!

Anyway, I'm not trying to rant.  I enjoy this game very much.  It's just getting harder and harder for us to explain why certain well known bible characters, for good or for evil, have such high or such low numbers for strength and toughness.  So are strength and toughness merely just gameplay elements now, and not trying to convey some sense of biblical accurancy?

Thanks for listening.

I don't think Redemption has a responsibility to try to make every single aspect of each card as much of a Biblical metaphor as possible. Special abilities should be accurate to what they're supposed to be representing, but when you start getting into a dispute about the numbers, I think you need to step back and look at the divide between accuracy and gameplay. I agree that early on, numbers were used as metaphors for different characters, and they still are from time to time. However, now that we have more in depth special abilities, we're able to use the SAs to do the same thing numbers did five or six years ago. I know where you're coming from, being able to use the numbers as a metaphor was a neat idea, however, I don't think it's necessary anymore, and using the numbers to view a character as inferior or superior isn't necessary anymore, because numbers don't really matter aside from initiative anymore.

I don't think Redemption has a responsibility to try to make every single aspect of each card as much of a Biblical metaphor as possible. Special abilities should be accurate to what they're supposed to be representing, but when you start getting into a dispute about the numbers, I think you need to step back and look at the divide between accuracy and gameplay. I agree that early on, numbers were used as metaphors for different characters, and they still are from time to time. However, now that we have more in depth special abilities, we're able to use the SAs to do the same thing numbers did five or six years ago. I know where you're coming from, being able to use the numbers as a metaphor was a neat idea, however, I don't think it's necessary anymore, and using the numbers to view a character as inferior or superior isn't necessary anymore, because numbers don't really matter aside from initiative anymore.

Thanks.  I agree that this is where we are now.  I'm primarily bothered by a rulebook/REG that says the numbers represent one thing, when we all know the numbers don't represent that anymore.  Like I said, we field a lot of questions like this from our youngest players who, because of what the rulebook says, connect spiritual or physical strength in the bible with the number that is on the card.  It just seems odd to tell newer players "These numbers are strength and toughness, but don't expect a stronger or tougher character in the bible to have a high strength or toughness in the game."  I was just wondering why it was deemed important in the beginning, but its considered unimportant now.  I guess it just comes down to wanting a better game. 

A long time ago I said something along the lines of "if Redemption becomes just a game, it will die."  I've always been a proponent of Redemption being continually connected with God's truth so that in addition to it being a fun outlet for young and old alike, it could also be used as a teaching tool, a witnessing tool, and what I like best about the game: it brings added color and life to my personal Bible study time.

But allow me to add a corollary to my above statement: "if Redemption becomes just the Bible, it will die."  That may sound odd.  To clarify, I do not think the game will continue to enjoy success if players approach it as a Bible study every time they play.

There must be balance.  Obviously, I lean more towards Biblical accuracy, but on some details like the numbered abilities I can be more open-minded.

This sort of attitude is refreshing.  Glad to see that someone values gameplay as well.

I also like it that some little-known characters from the Bible are also great (ie. Uzzah) because that gets people interested in learning more about the Bible than they already know.  And as for the numbers definitions in the REG, I just tell my new players that the left number is the attack and the right number is the defense.  I've never once had a player question me as to why someones attack or defense was too high or low.

I still say "strength" and "toughness," because then it's much easier to explain how MAD works.  The vast majority of players think that good is winning, when in reality the numbers say otherwise.  It's a lot simpler to them if I say that strength beats toughness, rather than attack beating defense.