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Author Topic: Crimson or Brown  (Read 6633 times)

Offline Red

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 01:59:03 PM »
0
Crimson is typically more consistent in its lists. Example:
Disagreement Over Mark
Hypocrisy
Dissension in Antioch

Are less powerful (In a vacuum) than:
Haman's Plot
Gibeonite Trickery
Provoked

However,
The first three gain a huge power jump when you can throw them off
Simon the Magician
Sapphira
Judas Iscariot.
Which is why in some respects Crimson is considered a better defense due to its consistency and flexibility.

Now, Brown contains more blocking potential with a huge drop in consistency.
Example:
Gates of Jerusalem shell:
Manasseh
Rehoboam
Zedekiah
Amon

With:
Scattered
Plot
Provoked
Trickery

That basic shell has more potential for cheap tricks and infi-blocks than the crimson list. But the crimson list has more consistency and flexibility due to the fact its cards are just always good. I honestly do see both defenses as being super viable, but a brown list is better in a vacuum due to recursion, side battles, and much much better negates.
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2018, 02:00:24 PM »
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How would you "play around Gates" on a consistent level? Not trolling I'm seriously asking because I'm think that pehaps I need to rethink how I play offense if your consistently getting to play around GoH.

b. You have to have a character in battle before you can play an enhancement this seems like a mute point to me. I agree that consistency is greater then power but I find Gates to be consistently powerful lol.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2018, 02:10:30 PM »
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Quote from: jbeers285 on January 20, 2018, 02:00:24 PM
How would you "play around Gates" on a consistent level? Not trolling I'm seriously asking because I'm think that pehaps I need to rethink how I play offense if your consistently getting to play around GoH.

b. You have to have a character in battle before you can play an enhancement this seems like a mute point to me. I agree that consistency is greater then power but I find Gates to be consistently powerful lol.

Attack with a Missionary and negate it Ends. There's often not even opportunity cost to this since most cards that sit in territories and affect battle are good so the negate portion of Ends struggles to find targets in many cases so negating Gates with it is practically free.

Gates gets significantly less consistent the smaller your defense becomes and these days there are so many offensive requirements that I can't find a way to cut a EC or EE without seriously regretting it.

Gates is also better in a meta where you are worried about not getting a chance to ever play an EE before you die but the best offense in a non-CoL deck is clay and clay doesn't win battles with it's characters; it uses characters to gain value and win with the value and with triple territory negates (Speech, rez, poly). You almost always have a chance when blocking martyrs to play at least one EE and if that EE is Disagreement, you just won the battle.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 02:19:39 PM by Kevinthedude »
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2018, 02:15:09 PM »
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Perhaps I missed something but does the phrase "not in battle" allow Ends to target cards in set aside areas?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2018, 02:16:38 PM »
+3
Quote from: jbeers285 on January 20, 2018, 02:15:09 PM
Perhaps I missed something but does the phrase "not in battle" allow Ends to target cards in set aside areas?

Quote from: REG
Several Redemption® cards contain abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards “not in battle” are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption.

Gates got hugely nerfed by Ends being printed.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 07:52:23 PM by Kevinthedude »
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2018, 02:18:00 PM »
+1
Wow . . . Learn something new every day. Solid Josh
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2018, 03:34:12 PM »
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To the point about Ends...there are not a huge number of really strong missionaries outside of Barnabas, Paul and Peter.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2018, 03:39:46 PM »
+1
Quote from: Red on January 20, 2018, 01:59:03 PM
Crimson is typically more consistent in its lists. Example:
Disagreement Over Mark
Hypocrisy
Dissension in Antioch

Are less powerful (In a vacuum) than:
Haman's Plot
Gibeonite Trickery
Provoked


However,
The first three gain a huge power jump when you can throw them off
Simon the Magician
Sapphira
Judas Iscariot.
Which is why in some respects Crimson is considered a better defense due to its consistency and flexibility.

Now, Brown contains more blocking potential with a huge drop in consistency.
Example:
Gates of Jerusalem shell:
Manasseh
Rehoboam
Zedekiah
Amon

With:
Scattered
Plot
Provoked
Trickery

That basic shell has more potential for cheap tricks and infi-blocks than the crimson list. But the crimson list has more consistency and flexibility due to the fact its cards are just always good. I honestly do see both defenses as being super viable, but a brown list is better in a vacuum due to recursion, side battles, and much much better negates.
Couple points...
You do actually have to rip the Plot and you only have three of them for 7+ rounds and you only have one deck for top cut. Of course playing Plot gives a major advantage, but considering you can only play it in less than half your games at major tournaments makes it significantly less good.
Gib Trick is hard countered by You will Remain. You basically have to Woes it or play Trick before/after YWR unless you want to play Treasures of War which I never seem to be able to justify maindecking.
Also I don't run Dissension...
Quote from: The Guardian on January 20, 2018, 03:34:12 PM
To the point about Ends...there are not a huge number of really strong missionaries outside of Barnabas, Paul and Peter.
Peter and Paul are mandatory in every clay deck, and they will continue to be until there's another offense worth playing. I'm actually running all three at the moment in my main T1 project.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 04:12:00 PM by Red Wing »
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2018, 06:09:43 PM »
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Crimson.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2018, 06:55:03 PM »
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Brown is a little bit faster (provoked, wickedness abounds) and more efficient with blocks, in the sense that the number of cards required for a substantial defense and at hand is small. That's really the recipe for success in tournaments and indeed Brown was successful. Crimson is still unproven, and barring the meta shift to O.T offenses, will suffer to prove itself because of its lack of ability to synergize with good offenses. But the margin between these defenses is fairly slim imo. I like crimson because it can really punish an opponents' aggro style offense with Hypocrisy+Mayhem and Great Image and better EC abilities.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2018, 09:30:30 PM »
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Brown also has King Saul and his cohorts (who get a huge boost from the Deceiver), all of which got me several blocks this past year. Brown I feel has more scary things than crimson, though Sapphira and those CB Enhancements are very scary. One of the reasons I ran Heavenly Temple was because of Disagreement (and of course the new FA). But brown also has a CBN dungeon that gets initiative over a lot of things, one that isn't stomped by Coliseum. Brown also has Confusion for when that becomes relevant again.

Outside of orange, I think crimson is the best splash and brown the best core.

The real Q is, why one over the other? I've been using a brown/crimson build in my deck and it's performed surprisingly well, despite not having several "power" cards (No Gib Trick, no Disagreement, etc.) purely to use Hypocrisy. It's been pretty consistent for relying on characters (and scummy).

Quote from: jbeers285 on January 20, 2018, 02:18:00 PM
Wow . . . Learn something new every day. Solid Josh

I feel like I even used it at one point to negate your Gates in our game. Either way, you're welcome.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Crimson or Brown
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2018, 10:16:46 PM »
+1
Quote from: Master Q on January 20, 2018, 09:30:30 PM
Brown also has King Saul and his cohorts (who get a huge boost from the Deceiver), all of which got me several blocks this past year. Brown I feel has more scary things than crimson, though Sapphira and those CB Enhancements are very scary. One of the reasons I ran Heavenly Temple was because of Disagreement (and of course the new FA). But brown also has a CBN dungeon that gets initiative over a lot of things, one that isn't stomped by Coliseum. Brown also has Confusion for when that becomes relevant again.

Neither Confusion nor Coliseum will ever be in future top tier T1 decks unless the game massively changes.
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