Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I completely agree.

I believe the cards have already gone to print for these promos.

I appreciate the concerns regarding the art. It's something we will consider for the future.

We do have standards when it comes to things like gore, nudity, etc. for art. We feel that this particular piece of art is within (though perhaps right on) those boundaries.
Similar images already on cards include Blood of the Lamb (Clear spear puncture mark, blood dripping down the face) and Antipas (Stabbed with all kinds of arrows or spears) among others.
We're also fairly limited when it comes to our art selection process. Public Domain works are our primary source of art, and you would be amazed at how much set creation time is actually spent hunting down images.

I do appreciate the suggestion of the original Christian Martyr art and want to comment on it directly - We did look at this piece, however, when formatted for the "Borderless" technique the image unfortunately becomes rather pixelated and just not great quality.

We considered about a dozen different martyr pieces and agreed on the one that was used. Maybe it would be “unfortunate” if this was going to be a widely available card. But as a limited print alternative to a card every player has with “better” art, the small number of players who obtain this version aren’t forced to use it if they don’t like it.

Personally I find High Priests Maid far more offensive than anything else mentioned here but you’ll never see me up in arms about it.

I see the artwork as an accurate depiction of the atrocities martyred Christians have suffered and continue to suffer the world over. We are well insulated and mostly isolated (in the US) from what is a daily reality for Christian brothers and sisters in other parts of the world. But I believe the main question is -

On the left side of the card the "martyred" person's left arm skin is being peeled off by another  person in the image and there is some red blood on the peeled skin and the arm is showing the inside of the skin.

In my opinion for what age range this game is targeted or presented to , that part of the image seems to be a little too gruesome and/or maybe a too little disturbing to me.

Does anyone else here feel the same about this??

If so what are your thoughts or ideas regarding this??

The short answer for me is No.
The expanded answer is -  My upbringing is not the same as anyone else. What I have seen and experienced over the past 30+ years in my careers is not the same as anyone else and this can be said for all of us. We are united as brothers and sisters in the Lord by Christ shedding his blood to cover our sins, not by our upbringing or backgrounds. I don't sugar coat or shy away from controversy and I raised my children the same. Our very existence as Christians is controversial to this world. The Bible is full of what would be considered atrocities, but that doesn't mean we glorify it, we just face the reality of it. The artwork on Christian Martyr is simply a  depiction of one such, not a glorification of. Far more "vulgar" artwork could have been considered/chosen and I am grateful to Rob and the Elders for capturing Biblical truths and realities, however uncomfortable they may seem to some.

RDT did a good job explaining it here -

I appreciate the concerns regarding the art. It's something we will consider for the future.

We do have standards when it comes to things like gore, nudity, etc. for art. We feel that this particular piece of art is within (though perhaps right on) those boundaries.

But as a limited print alternative to a card every player has with “better” art, the small number of players who obtain this version aren’t forced to use it if they don’t like it.

I agree with Gabe on this.
I will also offer to work a deal to acquire one if a player receives one, but does not want to keep it.
I know my stance will be unpopular, but we will agree to disagree.

Godspeed,
Mike

I am a bit surprised at the final choice. I don't think I would've noticed as much if it wasn't borderless, but yeah, that is kinda graphic for a borderless card. Problem is, you're going to have some of that no matter what you go with based on the nature of what it portrays. You want to show more flesh? Plenty of weirdly glorified/mixed quality crucifix paintings for that. You want perhaps a more disturbing picture of hanging bodies? Martyrs of Gorkum's got that.

While the Francisco piece wouldn't have been my first choice, I would prefer that over a blurry/"pixely" image anyday.

you would be amazed at how much set creation time is actually spent hunting down images.

I don't think I'd be that surprised. It's like a treasure hunt.

As one of the playtesters who did a thorough review of each card artwork, I personally did not feel that specific part of the card art in question as offensive and also felt it would be a teachable moment for me ie. for my minors.

I sincerely apologize if I have contributed to causing others to be concerned and even be offended by my approval contribution for the card art in question.

I personally honestly had subconsiously or unconsciously not considered the card offensive especially to my minors as I had witnessed a couple of young ones in the not so distant past share tbeir testimony on how they had strengthened their Faith and had gotten closer to God after watching 'The Passion of The Christ'.

When 'The Silent Scream' was shown to my students when they were barely freshmen in high school, my school was severly criticized by more than a few people including some parents. Meanwhile I know for sure that the 'gore' my kids and I had witnessed in that film has strongly cemented our stand against abortion, and the memory of more than 35 years ago is one I still celebrate.

Once again, all apologies if my 'oversight' contribution may have offended any of my brethren players.

Peace and Godbless all.

The picture is pretty disturbing.  Honestly, when I first looked at it I thought 'well at least I will probably never see one of these'.  I get that Christian Martyrs ARE a disturbing subject, and that some teachable moments could come from it, I'm just glad that it isn't a part of my every day play experience.  As has already been stated in this topic, I think Redemption deals with some very brutal subject matter and finding the art to depict it well must be very hard at times (and which honestly the elders overall do a great job of!), and for this specific piece I'm not sure if it is too disturbing or not. 

Something to keep in mind though, years ago when I started playing as a teenager, I bought some redemption cards (starter deck C+D era), and there were a few that were almost so disturbing to me at the time (Kingdoms of the World and Locust from the Pit come to mind) that I considered not playing the game because of it. 

Flaying is one of the most horrible forms of torture and isn't something that should be shown. It's one thing to imply that this form of torture might happen to the person... but the art literally show the dude's skin being peeled off... Modern TV shows and films avoid it and even MTG of all games wouldn't have art like this in their modern sets!

If MTG and HBO's Game of Thrones avoid the subject I'm not sure how it's appropriate for Redemption to show it.

     I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.

Godspeed,
Mike

Quote from: 777Godspeed on July 05, 2019, 09:58:58 AM

I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.

Godspeed,
Mike

I think that's his point. If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens onscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?

     Yeah, I didn't do a very good job with my explanation and I disagree with -

If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens onscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?

Unintentionally, this says showing flaying is worse than showing the other stuff mentioned. It is not, unless someone or some perceived standard has told you it is.
      I don't look to the secular world, or for this discussion, Modern TV and Film industries, as my standard of why I will or won't accept/avoid something. They chose not to show flaying for reasons unknown to us, but will wholeheartedly show/promote all that I mentioned above and it gets a lukewarm "meh" with a shrug. That is a problem. Why are we even looking to their standard? I don't think there would have been much of an outcry if a scene depicting some type of flaying would have been shown. My point of contention being, an arbitrary secular standard being cited as a standard for Redemption to accept/avoid doing something. I refuse to accept that as OK. I hope haven't muddied the water further and I don't believe Isildur or Bobbert in any way approved of the things that were shown.
     I trust Rob and the Elder Team have done their work diligently and prayerfully. I continue to pray that this game be used to transform peoples lives. We are a family. We have squabbles. We have disagreements. We have different perspectives. Many of us have spent decades of our lives together because of a game. We can agree to disagree. We are family.


Godspeed,
Mike
     

I'll come at the topic of gore by asking a question: Would you allow your (insert age) child to view the Passion of the Christ movie?

Depending on the age of your child, your answer is going to be yes or no due to the vivid depiction of Jesus' death.  If we insert the minimum age of 7 which Redemption is marketed to, is the answer yes or no?  I would submit that if the answer is no, then any artwork which would similarly depict the realities of such deaths is unacceptable to be used on a Redemption card.

I really do not think the number of cards printed should matter.  The artwork is depicted on more than just the card itself.  It is a featured topic at Land of Redemption which is a website which is frequently pointed to by anyone and everyone who plays and markets the game.

There are several cards which have artwork that I am disappointed to see on a Redemption card for being too much gore or too physically revealing.  Does that mean I never show my sons the game and forbid them playing it while under the age of 18?  Maybe, maybe not.  But it is certainly a very important topic for Cactus and the play testers to consider for any and all cards they choose to print.

 

I want to be very upfront with how much I respect the community here.

Mike, you've been around a long time and I'm pretty sure I've met you in person before, eons ago, and I have met and had friendships with many of the elders. While I no longer play... I still post and lurk on the forums because I have given a huge portion of my time and energy to the game and I still want to see it flourish.

That said... I still disagree with the stance that's being taken here.

I think that's his point. If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens offscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?

As Bobbert stated that is exactly my point.

I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.
...
I don't look to the secular world, or for this discussion, Modern TV and Film industries, as my standard of why I will or won't accept/avoid something. They chose not to show flaying for reasons unknown to us, but will wholeheartedly show/promote all that I mentioned above and it gets a lukewarm "meh" with a shrug. That is a problem. Why are we even looking to their standard? I don't think there would have been much of an outcry if a scene depicting some type of flaying would have been shown. My point of contention being, an arbitrary secular standard being cited as a standard for Redemption to accept/avoid doing something. I refuse to accept that as OK. I hope haven't muddied the water further and I don't believe Isildur or Bobbert in any way approved of the things that were shown.

Mike, I don't agree with these two statements at all.

The TV Parental Guidelines Monitoring Board and Motion Picture Association of America rate all the TV and film put in theaters and major TV and cable networks. While they do not prevent the content for existing they do rate what is going to be shown and if something is too explicit they will have scenes removed or replaced before the show can air with the appropriate rating.

Are you seriously saying you never use TV, film or video game ratings to know what is in your media? I sure do!

I will avoid films or games if there is too much gore or other mature themes and I'm fairly certain I'm much more liberal with the types of media I consume. Even many of the mature elements you mentioned that are shown either occur offscreen or the content that is shown, is shown in a way not to be extremely explicit. I'm being careful with my wording as this topic is still "public" but I hope it's clear what I'm trying to say.

Sean is much better with words than I am and I think he makes a very good point that lines up with what I'm trying to say. I know if I showed this to my parents as a kid or to anyone at the church I used to attend I would not be allowed to play. Shoot growing up classic rock, Pokemon and Harry Potter were serious concerns in the conservative household I grew up in.

I really do think this needs to be thought about more. As I mentioned previously it wouldn't be uncalled for to recall the card and release a new promo in the future for to those who attended. 

I just don't feel like the answer being given be the elders really covers the concerns of those who think the art is too much.

That said... I still disagree with the stance that's being taken here.

It is alright we agree to disagree. I was clear from the beginning what my stance was.

I see the artwork as an accurate depiction of the atrocities martyred Christians have suffered and continue to suffer the world over. We are well insulated and mostly isolated (in the US) from what is a daily reality for Christian brothers and sisters in other parts of the world.


The artwork on Christian Martyr is simply a  depiction of one such, not a glorification of. Far more "vulgar" artwork could have been considered/chosen and I am grateful to Rob and the Elders for capturing Biblical truths and realities, however uncomfortable they may seem to some.


I know my stance will be unpopular, but we will agree to disagree.

Quote from: 777Godspeed on July 05, 2019, 09:58:58 AM

I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.
...
I don't look to the secular world, or for this discussion, Modern TV and Film industries, as my standard of why I will or won't accept/avoid something. They chose not to show flaying for reasons unknown to us, but will wholeheartedly show/promote all that I mentioned above and it gets a lukewarm "meh" with a shrug. That is a problem. Why are we even looking to their standard? I don't think there would have been much of an outcry if a scene depicting some type of flaying would have been shown. My point of contention being, an arbitrary secular standard being cited as a standard for Redemption to accept/avoid doing something. I refuse to accept that as OK. I hope haven't muddied the water further and I don't believe Isildur or Bobbert in any way approved of the things that were shown.

Mike, I don't agree with these two statements at all.

The TV Parental Guidelines Monitoring Board and Motion Picture Association of America rate all the TV and film put in theaters and major TV and cable networks. While they do not prevent the content for existing they do rate what is going to be shown and if something is too explicit they will have scenes removed or replaced before the show can air with the appropriate rating.

Are you seriously saying you never use TV, film or video game ratings to know what is in your media? I sure do!

I addressed the above here -

Quote from: Bobbert on July 05, 2019, 10:03:20 AM

If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens onscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?

Unintentionally, this says showing flaying is worse than showing the other stuff mentioned. It is not, unless someone or some perceived standard has told you it is.    

my emphasis added.

and here -

      I don't look to the secular world, or for this discussion, Modern TV and Film industries, as my standard of why I will or won't accept/avoid something. They chose not to show flaying for reasons unknown to us, but will wholeheartedly show/promote all that I mentioned above and it gets a lukewarm "meh" with a shrug. That is a problem.
     My point of contention being, an arbitrary secular standard being cited as a standard for Redemption to accept/avoid doing something. I refuse to accept that as OK.      

again I added emphasis

and I continue to stand by -

     
     I trust Rob and the Elder Team have done their work diligently and prayerfully. I continue to pray that this game be used to transform peoples lives.     

I do not wish to derail this topic any further and this course of discussion is seemingly taking it that direction. I am glad you posted Isildur.


Godspeed,
Mike