Author Topic: Cascade Negate (Read 4680 times)

Jonesy · « **on:** July 25, 2018, 08:17:02 PM »

I was expressing my frustration with cascade negate. I was wondering the odds of it changing it. Someone encouraged me to create a thread to + 1 if you want to get rid of cascade negate. So here it is folks, + 1 it up.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2018, 08:18:06 PM »

I think this should actually be explained as stopping all "indirect negation" but I agree.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2018, 08:18:22 PM »

Jonesy · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2018, 08:20:12 PM »

You have a week to adjust decks.

Watchman · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2018, 08:49:27 PM »

I don’t agree with this rule change being implemented prior to Nats but am wholly in favor of a change to the cascade negate rule. I’m particularly in favor of anything that’s played after a card that’s CBI or CBN (like the Nebie example from the original thread) should not be cascade negated.

Jonesy · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2018, 08:56:55 PM »

Edited! I understand why people would want to wait until after Nats. So + 1 if you want it changed after at some point.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2018, 09:02:07 PM »

I would love to see it go but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2018, 09:03:04 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 25, 2018, 09:02:07 PM

I would love to see it go but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

It really is. The game doesn't break at all my removing cascade. A few cards get slightly stronger and a few get slightly weaker, that's it.

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2018, 09:36:14 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 25, 2018, 09:03:04 PM

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 25, 2018, 09:02:07 PM
I would love to see it go but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

It really is. The game doesn't break at all my removing cascade. A few cards get slightly stronger and a few get slightly weaker, that's it.

More than a few...all banding cards inherently get stronger and all drawing cards get inherently stronger.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have traditionally been on the side of maintaining the status quo. The issue of cascade negate was discussed at length during the process of creating REG 5.0. It was agreed upon at that time to maintain the status quo with the understanding that we would likely revisit at some point.

One of the things to keep in mind is that the majority of cascade negate situations, (which are really not all that common to begin with), are pretty easy to understand.

Hero A bands to Hero B. Hero B's ability activates. The band is then negated and Hero B's ability is thus negated.

As more and more CBN/CBI cards have been introduced into the card pool, the cascade negate process becomes much more convoluted (as evidenced by recent threads) because those cards end up in the middle, but I still believe that those scenarios are still fairly uncommon.

That being said, one of our objectives as a playtest team in recent years has been to give CBI to abilities that are "messy" to undo (i.e. cards like Ends of the Earth, search abilities, and even limited draw abilities like Servant Angel) and staying away from giving CBN/CBI to battle winners. Ergo, the likelihood of the messier cascade negate scenarios happening would continue to rise if no change was made. As a result, I would now say I am more open to the idea of eliminating cascades (or taking a smaller first step and starting with the idea that cascades can't "hop" CBN/CBI as Watchman mentioned).

Either of those changes could make the game better, but I am not convinced that is a certainty. Eliminating cascade opens the door to other odd scenarios and interactions, some of which we probably won't even realize until we start playing that way. As I mentioned at the beginning, banding and drawing--two of the strongest abilities in the game both offensively and defensively--both get inherently stronger in a world without cascades. In the interest of games not timing out due to "resetting" things, maybe it's okay for band and draw to get stronger, but it will change the game--of that I am certain.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2018, 09:57:25 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 25, 2018, 09:36:14 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 25, 2018, 09:03:04 PM
Quote from: Jeremystair on July 25, 2018, 09:02:07 PM
I would love to see it go but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

It really is. The game doesn't break at all my removing cascade. A few cards get slightly stronger and a few get slightly weaker, that's it.

More than a few...all banding cards inherently get stronger and all drawing cards get inherently stronger.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have traditionally been on the side of maintaining the status quo. The issue of cascade negate was discussed at length during the process of creating REG 5.0. It was agreed upon at that time to maintain the status quo with the understanding that we would likely revisit at some point.

One of the things to keep in mind is that the majority of cascade negate situations, (which are really not all that common to begin with), are pretty easy to understand.

Hero A bands to Hero B. Hero B's ability activates. The band is then negated and Hero B's ability is thus negated.

As more and more CBN/CBI cards have been introduced into the card pool, the cascade negate process becomes much more convoluted (as evidenced by recent threads) because those cards end up in the middle, but I still believe that those scenarios are still fairly uncommon.

That being said, one of our objectives as a playtest team in recent years has been to give CBI to abilities that are "messy" to undo (i.e. cards like Ends of the Earth, search abilities, and even limited draw abilities like Servant Angel) and staying away from giving CBN/CBI to battle winners. Ergo, the likelihood of the messier cascade negate scenarios happening would continue to rise if no change was made. As a result, I would now say I am more open to the idea of eliminating cascades (or taking a smaller first step and starting with the idea that cascades can't "hop" CBN/CBI as Watchman mentioned).

Either of those changes could make the game better, but I am not convinced that is a certainty. Eliminating cascade opens the door to other odd scenarios and interactions, some of which we probably won't even realize until we start playing that way. As I mentioned at the beginning, banding and drawing--two of the strongest abilities in the game both offensively and defensively--both get inherently stronger in a world without cascades. In the interest of games not timing out due to "resetting" things, maybe it's okay for band and draw to get stronger, but it will change the game--of that I am certain.

For the first 8 years that I played Redemption I didn't know cascade negate existed. I will concede that the game was, as a whole, lower power level then so it may not have been as noticeable but the change in the strength of the affected cards isn't actually that large. On paper it seems that way but I can tell you from experience playing without cascade that its not nearly as drastic of a power change as it might seem.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 25, 2018, 10:06:39 PM »

The 2015 Season at nats is when I first learned of cascade negate. 3 years later I still don't fully understand it. Prior to that nats the whole NE region played the whole season without cascade negate and it didn't break anything during that season. (I don't think we intended to break the rules or make incorrect rulings. I believe we just misunderstood what was supposed to be happening with Cascade.)

jbeers285 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2018, 10:24:13 PM »

Poll Added

goalieking87 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2018, 10:47:46 PM »

I would like for the poll to include an option for supporting cascade negate that does not hop CBN/CBI

The Guardian · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2018, 11:22:44 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on July 25, 2018, 10:47:46 PM

I would like for the poll to include an option for supporting cascade negate that does not hop CBN/CBI

Added.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2018, 08:31:08 AM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on July 25, 2018, 10:47:46 PM

I would like for the poll to include an option for supporting cascade negate that does not hop CBN/CBI

Thanks for including this option to vote Justin.

I know we aren't changing anything here and this is just an opinion poll but I struggle with this option. It's a halfway option that only gets messy on both sides. If we make a change here I'd like to see it go all or nothing because when we start trying to dance down the center aisle nothing gets accomplished or we do more damage then we undo.

Josh · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2018, 01:07:28 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 25, 2018, 09:36:14 PM

As I mentioned at the beginning, banding and drawing--two of the strongest abilities in the game both offensively and defensively--both get inherently stronger in a world without cascades.

First of all, negatable banding (Abishai, Asahel, Ishmaiah, Heldai, new Phineas, etc) is bad. The game is flooded with Negate abilities right now, including reusable EC negate abilities. It was flooded with them before 3 Woes existed, and 3W just added to the Negation Pain Train (trademark pending).

Now, CBI and CBN banding is powerful. But if negatable banding was powerful, Red would be a top offense.

Second, negatable drawing is a huge problem from a gameplay standpoint. I know Drawing is powerful, and making Draw abilites CBI makes them even more powerful, but it's so easy to make mistakes when Draw abilities get negated (plus, the opponent can't prove that the player isn't cheating).

I'm at the point where I don't even care about how powerful Draw abilities will be if they all become CBI; I'm ready to push that button. I'd much rather let the player keep the cards they drew off of Messenger of Satan or Abigail and get on with the battle than have them fumbling around, wracking their brain, trying (and probably failing) to put back the right cards in the right order.

Maybe we need a game rule that applies only to hidden information (Look, Search/Take, Draw, etc). Whenever a non-CBI/CBN "hidden information" ability is used by a player, any opponent may play a negate (or activate a triggered ability like Gam's Speech) to negate that ability before it happens. If they pass on the opportunity, then the "hidden information" ability becomes CBI. Maybe we start testing this in the battle phase only.*

* Credit goes to SEB for coming up with this idea

The Guardian · « **Reply #16 on:** July 26, 2018, 01:27:18 PM »

Negates (specifically evil negates) are back in vogue because we've made less CBN/CBI good battle winners in recent sets, and because we don't want to make negates all the same, many of them can target a variety of cards (i.e. Heroes or enhancements). Look back at the top Nationals decks from several years ago and there aren't many evil negates being used.

I think there's more reasons besides banding being cascade-able that Red has not been a top offense. And don't forget, a Red-based banding deck won Nationals in 2012...leading to the creation of Scattered.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2018, 03:27:53 PM »

Evil banding defenses get much better and so does Throne, that's a pretty big change. Not to mention this would be a fundamental rule change for something that 9/10 times is easily resolved.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2018, 03:31:36 PM »

It barely impacts throne. It really only effects Abigail.

Evil banding and letting the opponent play some cards to beat it?? What that seems terrible for the game.

(I agree with you pretty often Nathan just not on this one, lol)

The Guardian · « **Reply #19 on:** July 26, 2018, 03:44:08 PM »

Lost Souls with draw-dependent triggers also get better without cascade.

I attack with a Hero who has a regular draw ability and draw the Lawless LS, which I trigger on myself to get an extra evil card.

You block and at some point negate my draw.

Lawless goes back on top of the deck with the other cards I drew, but since it's not cascaded, I get to keep the evil card and then I'll draw Lawless again the next time I draw. I might even Woes my own draw ability so I can play another draw card and use Lawless twice in one battle...

SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx · « **Reply #20 on:** July 26, 2018, 03:44:35 PM »

Where is the vote for I don't really understand it at all?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #21 on:** July 26, 2018, 04:30:05 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 26, 2018, 03:44:08 PM

Lost Souls with draw-dependent triggers also get better without cascade.

I attack with a Hero who has a regular draw ability and draw the Lawless LS, which I trigger on myself to get an extra evil card.

You block and at some point negate my draw.

Lawless goes back on top of the deck with the other cards I drew, but since it's not cascaded, I get to keep the evil card and then I'll draw Lawless again the next time I draw. I might even Woes my own draw ability so I can play another draw card and use Lawless twice in one battle...

Good, N.T. souls needs the boost

The Guardian · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2018, 05:14:08 PM »

Same scenario except instead of Lawless, I draw Covet LS, which I give to you and take one of your LS.

Then the draw is negated and Covet goes back on my deck...but I still have the LS I grabbed from you...

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2018, 05:17:27 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 26, 2018, 05:14:08 PM

Same scenario except instead of Lawless, I draw Covet LS, which I give to you and take one of your LS.

Then the draw is negated and Covet goes back on my deck...but I still have the LS I grabbed from you...

I actually discovered stealing too many souls from the opponent isn't as good as it sounds after running hunter and covet in the same deck

The Guardian · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2018, 05:22:13 PM »

So when you were playing without cascade negate rules and a situation like this came up:

Draw ability happens, Revealer LS is drawn and activates.

Draw is then negated putting Revealer LS back on top of deck.

Did you leave the revealed cards on the bottom of the deck? (Essentially allowing Revealer to reveal 4 cards total--2 with the negated draw and 2 with the actual draw)

News:

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Cascade Negate statements

Author Topic: Cascade Negate (Read 4680 times)

TheHobbit13