Author Topic: Cards to keep as-is (but update old wording) post-set rotation (Read 10221 times)

jesse · « **Reply #50 on:** May 11, 2018, 10:21:36 PM »

@RC777 - thanks for revising the lists!

@RedemptionAggie - thanks for all of that input. It was very helpful!

So my understanding is that the Legacy Rares are going to be a select few cards which in number will be much smaller than the total number of cards being reprinted (which will include the Legacy Rares). So these lists that we're compiling from Unlimited to Disciples (all old card-face sets) of cards that would potentially be good to be reprinted (as-is, except with updated wording) can be much longer than what we imagine for a list of Legacy Rares. Ultimately, the elders will make the call about which cards will be reprinted - I trust this community list will be really helpful input for them. That being said, we still should try to select cards that would realistically see play among the most recent card sets. Finally, once again I am assuming that we should aim for just the most recent printing of a certain card, and not more than one version (potentially with exceptions such as a Daniel and Revelation Michael).

I'll update the master lists after going through RC777's updated lists and RedemptionAggie's suggestions.

Thanks again guys!

Update for RedemptionAggie:
- I took out False Dreams from Prophets. I had not realized that either!

- For the Female Only LS, yes I'll put it under G/H since that's the most recent version.
- Regarding Roman Prison, I was using Lackey and after looking back at it see that the art for the 2nd edition version is actually the Priests version! So yes I took that out.
- For the Apostles 3 Pharisees cards, I'm assuming that there will be 1 "band-all" card like the G version Sadducees after the 3 Apostles Sadducees cards
- I took out Herod Antipas (Ap), Cov. with Adam, Jawbone, Pharaoh's Magicians, and Protection of Jerusalem (Pa) based on your input.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #51 on:** May 11, 2018, 10:45:13 PM »

Quote from: jesse on May 11, 2018, 10:21:36 PM

@RC777 - thanks for revising the lists!

@RedemptionAggie - thanks for all of that input. It was very helpful!

So my understanding is that the Legacy Rares are going to be a select few cards which in number will be much smaller than the total number of cards being reprinted (which will include the Legacy Rares). So these lists that we're compiling from Unlimited to Disciples (all old card-face sets) of cards that would potentially be good to be reprinted (as-is, except with updated wording) can be much longer than what we imagine for a list of Legacy Rares. Ultimately, the elders will make the call about which cards will be reprinted - I trust this community list will be really helpful input for them. That being said, we still should try to select cards that would realistically see play among the most recent card sets. Finally, once again I am assuming that we should aim for just the most recent printing of a certain card, and not more than one version (potentially with exceptions such as a Daniel and Revelation Michael).

I'll update the master lists after going through RC777's updated lists and RedemptionAggie's suggestions.

Thanks again guys!

Update for RedemptionAggie:
- I took out False Dreams from Prophets. I had not realized that either!
- For the Female Only LS, yes I'll put it under G/H since that's the most recent version.
- Regarding Roman Prison, I was using Lackey and after looking back at it see that the art for the 2nd edition version is actually the Priests version! So yes I took that out.
- For the Apostles 3 Pharisees cards, I'm assuming that there will be 1 "band-all" card like the G version Sadducees after the 3 Apostles Sadducees cards
- I took out Herod Antipas (Ap), Cov. with Adam, Jawbone, Pharaoh's Magicians, and Protection of Jerusalem (Pa) based on your input.

Will continue to look through my lists and probably take out a few more cards in the next few days.

jesse · « **Reply #52 on:** May 11, 2018, 11:58:50 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777

Will continue to look through my lists and probably take out a few more cards in the next few days.

Thanks! I just went through them too and added to the master lists all the ones you suggested that haven't already been listed, haven't already been reprinted, aren't in the wrong brigade, have only 1 SA that isn't especially useful, etc. At least a few were added to each list, so it's been really helpful to have your input!

I'll get the G/H list started soon, but would appreciate your help on that one too

Edit:

G/H List-

Burial
Burning up the Chaff
Dathan
Deceit of Sapphira
Denying Blame
Egyptian Charioteers
Egyptian Horsemen
Great Faith
Lost Soul (1 Corinthians 1:27)
Lost Soul - Female Only (Jeremiah 7:18)
Lying Unto God
Moses’ Rod
Murmuring
Preaching the Truth
Reach of Desperation
Sadducees
Sapphira
Taking Egypt’s Wealth
Thrown into the Sea
Trust in the Lord
Zelophehad’s Sin

Taking input on G/H, anything prior, or the next set: Priests! (another massive one like Kings - 251 cards!

)

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #53 on:** May 12, 2018, 07:42:33 PM »

Jerusalem Tower probably shouldn't be on the list, because it's a terribly worded card (restrict instead of protect).

Backward Shadow does not help against toss, because toss is RoP.

jesse · « **Reply #54 on:** May 13, 2018, 11:11:14 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on May 12, 2018, 07:42:33 PM

Jerusalem Tower probably shouldn't be on the list, because it's a terribly worded card (restrict instead of protect).

Backward Shadow does not help against toss, because toss is RoP.

Updated by taking both of those out, thanks. Now working on Priests and it's tough because (imo) so many cards are "playable" even by modern standards...I don't want to just choose the most powerful cards only because of power creep. So I'll do my best with the initial list and it might be long but it can always be narrowed down later.

jesse · « **Reply #55 on:** May 14, 2018, 12:10:56 AM »

Ok here's my Priests list.

Notes: "Place” SA cards I’m assuming should be territory class. Didn’t include any CBI/CBN removal. King of Tyrus and “Prince” demons I’m assuming should be warrior class. Urim and Thummim - is it too powerful that it can immediately hide itself?

Abiathar
Abihu
Agur
Altar of Ahaz
Altar of Burnt Offering
Altar of Incense
Amariah the High Priest
Angel in the Path
Army of the Lord
Asaph
Assyrian Camp
Azariah the High Priest
Blindness
Bronze Cymbals
Built on Sand
Burning Incense
Carcasses
Carried into Exile
Confusion of Mind
Covenant with Levi
Covenant with Phinehas
Deafening Spirit
Demon behind the Idol
Desolate Gateways
Ethan
Evil Angel
Faith in Our High Priest
Fallen Angel
False Priests
First Fruits
Flee from Enemies
Forgotten History
Go Into Captivity
Grain Offering
Headquarters at Riblah
High Priest Annas
High Priest Caiaphas
High Priest’s Palace
Incurable
Jehoiada’s Strength
Job Overcomes
Jordan Interrupted
Joshua the High Priest
Judas Iscariot
King Merodach-baladan
King of Tyrus
Kingdoms of the World
Lost Soul - Wanderer (Ezekiel 34:6) (Already a Legacy Rare)
Lost Soul - Thorns (II Samuel 23:6)
Lost Soul - Color Guard (Jeremiah 13:10)
Lost Soul - Speed Bump (Matthew 19:23)
Madness
Mildewed House
Oppressed and Robbed
Passover & Unleavened Bread
Pentecost (Already a Legacy Rare)
Pharaoh’s Throne Room
Phinehas, son of Eli
Plagued with Diseases
Pride before Calamity
Pride in Position
Pride in the Flesh
Protection of Angels
Rain Becomes Dust
Sabbath Breaker (Already a Legacy Rare)
Scapegoat
Seizing Spirit
Table of Showbread
The Bronze Laver
The Sabbath
The Silver Trumpets
Unified Kingdom
Unknown Nation
Unsuccessful
Wonders Forgotten
Zeresh

If no comments regarding this set, up next is Faith of Our Fathers! This is gonna be tough from now on...

jbeers285 · « **Reply #56 on:** May 14, 2018, 12:15:27 AM »

KoT???

jesse · « **Reply #57 on:** May 14, 2018, 12:19:31 AM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 14, 2018, 12:15:27 AM

KoT???

I put a note about KoT at the top of the list- I'm assuming that he would get warrior class because he's a king

Gabe · « **Reply #58 on:** May 14, 2018, 01:04:38 AM »

Quote from: jesse on May 14, 2018, 12:19:31 AM

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 14, 2018, 12:15:27 AM
KoT???

I put a note about KoT at the top of the list- I'm assuming that he would get warrior class because he's a king

Warrior class is given because someone is noted for fighting in battle. Most earthly kings qualify but not all do (see King Lemuel). I don't see anything in the passage about KoT that makes me think he's fighting in battle.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #59 on:** May 14, 2018, 01:37:43 AM »

Even if KoT isn't a warrior, he might warrant black, since he's a Canaanite. He could get the Moses treatment - a different version as black/orange and the identical reprint as orange. And speaking of Moses, he should be on either the Warriors or G/H list since he's a Legacy Rare this year.

I'd actually reprint the C/D HoH since it's always CBN, instead of just during the battle phase, and CoW Moses exists.

jesse · « **Reply #60 on:** May 14, 2018, 07:43:29 AM »

Quote from: Gabe

Warrior class is given because someone is noted for fighting in battle. Most earthly kings qualify but not all do (see King Lemuel). I don't see anything in the passage about KoT that makes me think he's fighting in battle.

OK gotcha, thanks for explaining. I forgot about King Lemuel. KoT is added in (even though he might get reprinted as black/orange as RedemptionAggie noted).

Quote from: RedemptionAggie

Even if KoT isn't a warrior, he might warrant black, since he's a Canaanite. He could get the Moses treatment - a different version as black/orange and the identical reprint as orange. And speaking of Moses, he should be on either the Warriors or G/H list since he's a Legacy Rare this year.

I'd actually reprint the C/D HoH since it's always CBN, instead of just during the battle phase, and CoW Moses exists.

Thanks as well- lists updated accordingly.

So I see (based on Moses and what you're saying about KoT) that my assumption that we would just go with the newest version of a card is incorrect. I had viewed the newest versions as being the "definitive" version that would replace all older versions in a set rotation world. I was wondering why there would be an older/inferior version kept in the game of a reprinted card.

jesse · « **Reply #61 on:** May 15, 2018, 11:56:40 PM »

Continuing with FooF and RoA, since most are quite competitive cards, I decided to only list the ones that need their special abilities changed (imo). I gave a little explanation for each one:

Faith of Our Fathers

Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:

Assyrian Siege Army (OP)
David’s Mighty Men (CBN removal)
Deborah’s Directive (OP)
Emperor Galba (toughness)
Expelling the Jews (should just be gray)
Filling Zerubbabel’s Temple (add Reserve access)
Hidden Treasures (OP)
Iron Pan (protect = immune now so it’s redundant)
Jacob (reprinted)
Joseph (reprinted, although I like this version too)
Philistine Armor Bearer (OP)
Rome (needs new ability)
Uzzah (too splashy chump block)

Rock of Ages

Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:

Ahimelek the Hittite (CBN removal)
Angel with the Secret Name (OP)
Bravery of David (CBN removal)
Convincing Miracle (CBN removal)
Eli the Priest (reprinted)
Jeiel (needs new ability)
Melchizedek (reprinted)
Musician’s Chambers (needs new ability)
Repentance and Restitution (CBN removal)
Romans Destroy Jerusalem (CBN removal)
Samuel (reprinted)
Samuel’s Edict (CBN removal)
Stone of Thebez (CBN removal)
The Angel Under the Oak (OP)
The Rabsaris Attacks (CBN removal)
The Throne of David (OP)
Valley of Salt (CBN removal)
Zechariah (needs new ability)

TxP and Disciples are next and the last 2 sets of this project. Any suggestions, comments, etc. are welcome. And once again, I think it'll be easier to just list the ones that need changed, as the caliber of these sets is pretty comparable to I/J-present. Thanks everyone!

Gabe · « **Reply #62 on:** May 16, 2018, 08:28:18 AM »

Good lists and solid reasoning, Jesse.

Kor · « **Reply #63 on:** May 16, 2018, 10:34:22 PM »

Quote from: jesse on May 15, 2018, 11:56:40 PM

Continuing with FooF and RoA, since most are quite competitive cards, I decided to only list the ones that need their special abilities changed (imo). I gave a little explanation for each one:

Faith of Our Fathers

Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:

Assyrian Siege Army (OP)
David’s Mighty Men (CBN removal)
Deborah’s Directive (OP)
Emperor Galba (toughness)
Expelling the Jews (should just be gray)
Filling Zerubbabel’s Temple (add Reserve access)
Hidden Treasures (OP)
Iron Pan (protect = immune now so it’s redundant)
Jacob (reprinted)
Joseph (reprinted, although I like this version too)
Philistine Armor Bearer (OP)
Rome (needs new ability)
Uzzah (too splashy chump block)

Rock of Ages

Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:

Ahimelek the Hittite (CBN removal)
Angel with the Secret Name (OP)
Bravery of David (CBN removal)
Convincing Miracle (CBN removal)
Ehud’s Dagger (CBN removal)
Eli the Priest (reprinted)
Jeiel (needs new ability)
Melchizedek (reprinted)
Musician’s Chambers (needs new ability)
Persian Presidents (CBN removal)
Repentance and Restitution (CBN removal)
Romans Destroy Jerusalem (CBN removal)
Samuel (reprinted)
Samuel’s Edict (CBN removal)
Scattered (CBN removal)
Stone of Thebez (CBN removal)
The Angel Under the Oak (OP)
The Rabsaris Attacks (CBN removal)
The Throne of David (OP)
Valley of Salt (CBN removal)
Zechariah (needs new ability)

TxP and Disciples are next and the last 2 sets of this project. Any suggestions, comments, etc. are welcome. And once again, I think it'll be easier to just list the ones that need changed, as the caliber of these sets is pretty comparable to I/J-present. Thanks everyone!

Scattered is in the new tin and therefore uses the new format I think? I could be wrong. Even if it isn't, CBN removal on condition of 'more than one opponent' in battle isn't something that has been gone away from in recent sets. Faith of Samson and Faith of Barak are examples. Ark of the Covenant (RoJ) gives entire themes that ability...

As for the no CBN removal and protection if that is a solid rule for Legacy cards how does Balaam's Disobedience make the cut this year?

I think certain conditional CBN cards can make the cut, Ehud's Dagger and Persian Presidents for example.

The Guardian · « **Reply #64 on:** May 17, 2018, 04:05:57 AM »

personally I believe there is a place in the game for CBN abilities. While I think certain sets probably went a bit too far (notably the FooF/RoA II tins), having some CBN in the mix keeps the game from being a FBTN/FBTN banding meta that ruled for so long. Additionally, introducing cards such as Coliseum, TSA (RoJ) and Overtaken creates further tension in how many of those CBN cards players think they can afford to include. While Coliseum certainly took a hit with the introduction of Three Woes, I think people gave up on it too quickly. Every time I run into it in games these days, it always seems to be at least somewhat effective in limiting my options--especially if I needed to use Three Woes as evil and can't target it for negation anyway.

jesse · « **Reply #65 on:** May 17, 2018, 11:28:54 PM »

Thanks for the input, Gabe, Kor, and Guardian. I forgot that Tin 26 is in the new format, so I'll take off Scattered. And about CBN removal, I think pretty much all of it is conditional, isn't it? I like The Guardian's point about it being a balancer vs. FBTN(B) and agree that some (Samuel's Edict, Bravery of David) are more powerful/OP than others (Persian Presidents, David's Mighty Men). Knowing the elders will be the ones to draw the lines, I'll just make the specific suggestions Kor made and leave it at that for now.

Working on TxP/Di now...

jesse · « **Reply #66 on:** May 18, 2018, 12:01:25 AM »

Ok here's what I've got for the final 2 sets, TxP and Di. As with the last 2, I listed the ones that should not be kept as most are good as-is already (imo).

Thesaurus Ex Preteritus

Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:

Herod’s Treachery (needs new ability)
Jeremiah (needs new ability)
King Asa (needs new ability)
Nebuchadnezzar (as much as I love using him, I have to admit he might be OP)
Samaritan Water Jar (OP for T2)
The Entrapping Pharisees (CBN removal - although it gives the opponent an out so maybe it’s ok?)

question: are Gomer and Wandering Spirit ok?

Disciples

Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:

Creeping Deceiver (OP because of wording “cannot be negated by a character)
David’s Triumph (CBN removal)
Elymas the Sorcerer (reprinted)
Gabriel (reprinted)
John the Baptist (needs new ability - he needs to be really awesome and work with SoG, imo!)
Kindness (reprinted)
Philetus (reprinted)
Thaddeus (OP)

Any suggestions are welcome on these 2, or any of the previous sets.

Otherwise, that's all! Thanks for the input, everyone! I pray these lists are helpful for the elders if/when set rotation happens!

Asahel24601 · « **Reply #67 on:** May 18, 2018, 03:29:08 AM »

I don't think Triumph is really an issue or needs changing, as it's only CBN against a philistine and only targets male humans (which, with the Symbolic Horsemen and plethora of demons these days, is problematic.) The CBN is too conditional to ever come into play.

Gabe · « **Reply #68 on:** May 18, 2018, 08:49:01 AM »

I don't think CBN removal is needed to keep FBTN in check. CBP removal would do the job just as well without taking away interaction in the battle phase.

That being said, some CBN removal is OK. When it comes to CBN removal a good rule of thumb is to think about how reliable it is to make it CBN. Does it rely on the opponent's deck building (David's Triumph, DMM, Ehud's Dagger)? Probably OK. Does it give the opponent an "easy" out (The Entrapping Pharisees)? Probably OK. Does it rely on a condition that is difficult to meet consistently (Convincing Miracle)? Probably OK. Is it only CBN a small number of characters (Valley of Salt, Zeal for the Lord)? TBH I'm on the fence with these. Does it rely on the opponent's choices in game (Scattered, Fo Samson, Fo Barak)? Probably OK. Does it provide a one time stall block situationally (Balaam's Disobedience)? Probably OK.

Hopefully that helps add some clarity. I don't speak entirely for the elder team on that list but generally speaking that is where our discussion has led as to what we feel is healthy for the future. If we have an opportunity to create a new environment we'd like it to be one where reliable CBN removal doesn't exist.

jesse · « **Reply #69 on:** May 18, 2018, 11:22:26 AM »

Yes that's really helpful! I'll adjust the lists based on the specific cards you mentioned in that post.

Kor · « **Reply #70 on:** May 18, 2018, 12:49:22 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on May 18, 2018, 08:49:01 AM

I don't think CBN removal is needed to keep FBTN in check. CBP removal would do the job just as well without taking away interaction in the battle phase.

That being said, some CBN removal is OK. When it comes to CBN removal a good rule of thumb is to think about how reliable it is to make it CBN. Does it rely on the opponent's deck building (David's Triumph, DMM, Ehud's Dagger)? Probably OK. Does it give the opponent an "easy" out (The Entrapping Pharisees)? Probably OK. Does it rely on a condition that is difficult to meet consistently (Convincing Miracle)? Probably OK. Is it only CBN a small number of characters (Valley of Salt, Zeal for the Lord)? TBH I'm on the fence with these. Does it rely on the opponent's choices in game (Scattered, Fo Samson, Fo Barak)? Probably OK. Does it provide a one time stall block situationally (Balaam's Disobedience)? Probably OK.

Hopefully that helps add some clarity. I don't speak entirely for the elder team on that list but generally speaking that is where our discussion has led as to what we feel is healthy for the future. If we have an opportunity to create a new environment we'd like it to be one where reliable CBN removal doesn't exist.

I agree that CBP can deal with FBTN chains in a balanced way.

However, it is interesting that you mention being on the fence about CBN on a small number of characters and specifically mention Valley of Salt and Zeal for the Lord. Those are actually the situations that I am worried about if CBN becomes more limited in availability. Especially because those interrupt AND battle win CBN. Remembering playing back during Priests, Phinehas>Zeal x5 was extremely hard to deal with as there were much more limited evil options for CBN win(aside from capture which Z's temple protected from). And even if those 2 enhancements aren't reprinted we have Peter>Elymas Struck Blind that will be very strong if there aren't CBN options on defense. I'm not sure how to get around this other than chumping every turn, and doing that doesn't especially make for an interesting combat phase either.

Gabe · « **Reply #71 on:** May 18, 2018, 01:30:44 PM »

Quote from: Kor on May 18, 2018, 12:49:22 PM

...it is interesting that you mention being on the fence about CBN on a small number of characters and specifically mention Valley of Salt and Zeal for the Lord. Those are actually the situations that I am worried about if CBN becomes more limited in availability.

"I'm on the fence" isn't all that accurate. "We're on the fence" would have been a better way to present that. ZftL was on the LR list this year until very late in the process (and looked amazing btw!) but was replaced by Pentecost when I talked our team into waiting so we can better assess it for a hypothetical future meta. I don't think Zeal is healthy, especially with The Tabernacle (P). VoS might be OK without reprinting Throne in it's current form, but I doubt that too.

Quote from: Kor on May 18, 2018, 12:49:22 PM

...we have Peter>Elymas Struck Blind that will be very strong if there aren't CBN options on defense. I'm not sure how to get around this other than chumping every turn, and doing that doesn't especially make for an interesting combat phase either.

Since the ship has sailed on Peter+ESB if we find that's a problem for T2 we can address that with more cards like Confusion (CoW) that are designed to have a greater impact on multiple copies in T2.

The Guardian · « **Reply #72 on:** May 18, 2018, 01:44:18 PM »

FWIW, I have yet to see anyone abuse Peter and all the Acts battle winners in a T2 deck (even the interrupt ones like ESB and Preaching in Synagouge), which makes me think the issue is more with CBN battle winners that can be used by a variety of characters (Edict, Bravery of David) or ones that can be easily recurred (Zeal).

kariusvega · « **Reply #73 on:** May 18, 2018, 01:50:52 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on May 18, 2018, 01:44:18 PM

FWIW, I have yet to see anyone abuse Peter and all the Acts battle winners in a T2 deck (even the interrupt ones like ESB and Preaching in Synagouge), which makes me think the issue is more with CBN battle winners that can be used by a variety of characters (Edict, Bravery of David) or ones that can be easily recurred (Zeal).

Kor · « **Reply #74 on:** May 18, 2018, 02:01:36 PM »

It definitely isn’t a problem currently, but most good battle winners currently are CBN, and Peter has no way to play first. I just could see a meta happening in a reduced card pool where it could be.

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Author Topic: Cards to keep as-is (but update old wording) post-set rotation (Read 10221 times)

kariusvega